[schrocat]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5751284/

I hope Larry isn't so peeved that he throws his medals on the whitehouse lawn...

"It's like a Hollywood presentation here, which wasn't the case," Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

So now "Larry" (mouthpiece of Rove) would have us cast doubt on everyones Vietnam service accolades???!!!!

Hear that noise?
It's the sound of a few thousand more Bush Cheney stickers being removed from cars nationwide...

[Ninong]

Chart from NY Times article published today, Aug. 20, 2004:

[Ninong]

Schrocat,

Since you are a big fan of Republican Sen. John McCain, I'm sure you remember what George W. Bush's campaign did to him during the last three or four days before the South Carolina Republican primary, right?

They got on the phones and did push polls during the last few days of the campaign that asked questions of prospective voters. Here is a typical question asked of people who expressed an intention to vote for Senator McCain: "Would it affect your vote to know that Senator McCain fathered a black child?"

That was one of several sleasy questions that they asked when the person on the other end of the line said they intended to vote for McCain. Since you are a fan of McCain's, you probably know the truth behind that question. The truth is that Senator McCain and his wife adopted a dark skinned child from Bengladesh years ago. She is pictured in this family photo on McCain's official website: http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=Bio.Home

They also questioned his service in Viet-Nam with comments that being captured and staying put for several years only proved he was inept at escaping, not that he was courageous. Similar attacks against his patriotism were made against Max Cleland in Georgia. I'm surprised they didn't claim that his loss of three limbs was self-inflicted like they have claimed for one of Kerry's injuries.

[schrocat]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Schrocat,

Since you are a big fan of Republican Sen. John McCain, I'm sure you remember what George W. Bush's campaign did to him during the last three or four days before the South Carolina Republican primary, right?

They got on the phones and did push polls during the last few days of the campaign that asked questions of prospective voters. Here is a typical question asked of people who expressed an intention to vote for Senator McCain: "Would it affect your vote to know that Senator McCain fathered a black child?"

That was one of several sleasy questions that they asked when the person on the other end of the line said they intended to vote for McCain. Since you are a fan of McCain's, you probably know the truth behind that question. The truth is that Senator McCain and his wife adopted a dark skinned child from Bengladesh years ago. She is pictured in this family photo on McCain official website: http://mccain.senate.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=Bio.Home

They also questioned his service in Viet-Nam with comments that being captured and staying put for several years only proved he was inept at escaping, not that he was courageous. Similar attacks against his patriotism were made against Max Cleland in Georgia. I'm surprised they didn't claim that his loss of three limbs was self-inflicted like they have claimed for one of Kerry's injuries.

I will never forget, or forgive.
The treatment of McCain by these people simply did not register with most Republicans at the time...I still don't think the average Republican "gets it".
It's embarrasing.
The mere fact the whisper campaign that "McCain's POW experience had left him...loopy" came from his own party should have been a red flag of what these people were capable of.
Republicans were silent...and the bar of unacceptable behavior was lowered by Rove once again.

I do not hate Bush. He is quite possibly mentally challenged (not meant as an insult...I venture a guess that his IQ is less than 90)
Instead, I hate Rove and everyone on his speed dial...which by the way is one phone number shorter today. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5762434/

[schrocat]

Ooops.

Rove's speed dial takes another hit...a travesty.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...oat/index.html

[Ninong]

SBVT's second ad is even more phony than the first. They have taken pieces of Kerry's 1971 testimony out of context and are implying that these are accusations made by Kerry himself:

The latest ad, a 30-second spot released Friday, uses segments from Kerry's testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971. In the ad, Kerry says, "They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads," "randomly shot at civilians," and "razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn."


The ad does not include Kerry's preface, in which he said he is reporting what others said at a Vietnam veterans conference. Instead, a swift boat group member refers to the statements as "accusations" Kerry made against Vietnam veterans.

An official transcript shows Kerry was referring to a meeting in Detroit, Michigan, that was part of what was called the Winter Soldier investigation. Kerry has said he regrets some of the comments but stands by his protests.

The DNC has a copy of a flyer put out by a local official Bush-Cheney campaign committee in Florida announcing a "Pro-America" rally this weekend that lists the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth as one of the event's sponsors. I guess whichever Bush-Cheney campaign official was responsible for printing the flyer will now resign so that they can continue to assert that there is no illegal coordination between the Bush-Cheney campaign and the SBVT.

P.S. -- In case anyone is unfamiliar with what Kerry was referring to in his 1971 congressional testimony, he was talking about "confessions" made by other veterans, similar to "confessions" made by former Navy seal and Congressional Medal of Honor winner Senator Bob Kerrey of Nebraska. As far as the razing of villages is concerned, it was standard operating procedure to burn VC villages to deny them support. That's not a secret and no one would dare deny that. As far as randomly shooting at civilians is concerned, that happened at the highest levels of command. An Army division commander (major general) was charged with shooting civilians from his helicopter. Two pilots (chief warrant officers) filed official reports that the general was shooting civilians from his helicopter when they took him out for inspection tours. The final straw was when he shot an elderly man and woman in their backyard soaking tub. The official investigation was closed after both pilots withdrew their reports and were transferred to other units. The general was allowed to take early retirement. He was not officially charged with anything. Both CWOs left the service for civilian careers. Neither was charged with filing a false report, something they most certainly would have faced had they filed false charges against a general officer.

This reminds me a lot of Colin Powell's army career. It was Capt. Powell who was sent to Lt. Calley's division shortly after the My Lai incident to investigate anecdotal reports of "misconduct" but who found nothing to substantiate those claims. Of course, he refused to talk to the enlisted men who actually made the charges and instead talked only to field grade commanders. I'm not even sure he ever talked to anyone below batallion level. Colin's motto has always been "go along to get along." It seems to have worked for him.

BTW, in Colin's most recent book he admits that any male of fighting age who ran when the helicopters approached was considered to be VC and was shot.

[schrocat]

Call for Swift Boat Veteran to Step Down
By Colin Fogarty

PORTLAND, OR 2004-08-24 (OPB Radio) - A group of veterans protested in front of the Clackamas County courthouse Monday, calling for the assistant district attorney Al French to step down over an appearance in an anti-John Kerry ad.

Al French is a member of the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which is running ads questioning the Democratic presidential candidate's war record. French says in the spot that he served with John Kerry and that the Massachusetts Senator received Purple Hearts under false pretenses.

French signed an affidavit making the same claim. But he has since said he did not witness the incident in question relied on information provided by friends he served with in Vietnam. That outrages Terry Kirsch.

Terry Kirsch: He's told lies and hearsay evidence, which is something that he himself should accept in a court of law. For him to come out of a disrespect a fellow combat veteran, it just tears at my soul.

French has said he trusts the information provided by the other veterans sponsoring the ad.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by schrocat

French signed an affidavit making the same claim. But he has since said he did not witness the incident in question relied on information provided by friends he served with in Vietnam. That outrages Terry Kirsch.

I don't know who this Al French guy is but one of the swifties is a retired rear admiral. The Dept. of the Navy should be outraged if he signed any affidavits that contradicted anything in the official record, especially if he was involved in the direct chain of command at the time. I believe I read somewhere that they were looking into it but considering that there is a Republican in the White House at the present moment, don't expect it to go anywhere.

Speaking of Karl Rove's campaign tactics, check out this article that compares the present tactics with what they used against not only John McCain in the South Carolina primary but also Ann Richards in the Texas governor's race.http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NGF78DCN01.DTL

[Ninong]

"...I have decided to resign as national counsel to your campaign to ensure that the giving of legal advice to decorated military veterans, which was entirely within the boundaries of the law, doesn’t distract from the real issues upon which you and the country should be focusing." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818431/

The attorney who was national counsel to the Bush-Cheney campaign was also the attorney for the swifties but please don't think that there was any connection or association between the two groups. They were completely separate and uncoordinated and anyone who thinks there was any connection whatsoever is an unpatriotic hippy from San Francisco.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I don't know who this Al French guy is but one of the swifties is a retired rear admiral. The Dept. of the Navy should be outraged if he signed any affidavits that contradicted anything in the official record, especially if he was involved in the direct chain of command at the time. I believe I read somewhere that they were looking into it but considering that there is a Republican in the White House at the present moment, don't expect it to go anywhere.

This is what I was talking about:

The March 18, 1969, weekly report from Task Force 115, which was located by The Associated Press during a search of Navy archives, is the latest document to surface that supports Kerry’s description of an event for which he won a Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart.

The Task Force report twice mentions the incident five days earlier and both times calls it “an enemy initiated firefight” that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry’s.

Task Force 115 was commanded at the time by retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the founder of the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has been running ads challenging Kerry’s account of the episode. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634/

How can Hoffmann get away with contradicting his own weekly report? Is he now saying that he knowingly accepted and authorized the filing of a weekly report that was untruthful?

[Samper]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Schrocat,

Since you are a big fan of Republican Sen. John McCain, I'm sure you remember what George W. Bush's campaign did to him during the last three or four days before the South Carolina Republican primary, right?

They got on the phones and did push polls during the last few days of the campaign that asked questions of prospective voters. Here is a typical question asked of people who expressed an intention to vote for Senator McCain: "Would it affect your vote to know that Senator McCain fathered a black child?"

My god, I didn't know this.


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...NGF78DCN01.DTL
Since I'm a day late where can I find this? Quote: Meanwhile, MoveOn.org will host a star-studded gala tonight in New York to kick off a drive billed as "10 Weeks: Don't Get Mad, Get Even!'' which will air a dozen television commercials featuring high-profile directors and actors, including Matt Damon, Rob Reiner, Woody Harrelson, Kevin Bacon and Al Franken.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Samper

Since I'm a day late where can I find this? Quote: Meanwhile, MoveOn.org will host a star-studded gala tonight in New York to kick off a drive billed as "10 Weeks: Don't Get Mad, Get Even!'' which will air a dozen television commercials featuring high-profile directors and actors, including Matt Damon, Rob Reiner, Woody Harrelson, Kevin Bacon and Al Franken.

Here: http://www.moveonpac.org/

[schrocat]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,130093,00.html

Ninong,

Rove doesn't consider the Presidents Attorney to be "in the loop"...interesting.

Kudos to Fox and Britt Hume for getting this exclusive interview from the mad monk!

[schrocat]

Ninong,

I just read the entire transcript of John Kerry's '71 Testimony.

...all I have to say, is good luck to Fox news, Rove, the Not So Swift Boat Skippers in their quest to rewrite the history of the Vietnam conflict.

In their sad little world, the "conflict" was popular and neccesary until the very moment JF Kerry testified. At that exact moment, the bottom dropped out, and all welcome home parades were canceled.
It's %$#@ like this that has 10%+ of us not believing we landed on the moon.
Wait a minute! Didn't Fox do that to us too?!

Not one comment credited to Kerry in any ad was actually used in anything remotely approaching context.
His mention of attrocities is limited to refering to others testimony that wasn't even given that day.
He states he doesn't speak for all veterans...

I don't get it.

[Samper]

Can anyone update me on what the candidates are saying about
1 Military
2. Gun laws
3. Patriot Act
4. Medical Marijuana

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Samper

Can anyone update me on what the candidates are saying about
1 Military

Kerry wants to increase the size of the Army by 40,000 and implement new changes more closely aligned with mainstream military views than the present Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz doctrine. Both candidates favor lighter, faster, better equipped, more responsive rapid response units. Kerry favors increasing the size of special forces. Bush wants to withdraw half of our troops from other foreign posts so that they can be reassigned to Iraq. Kerry thinks it is stupid to withdraw our forces from South Korea at the present time because it may send the wrong message to Kim Jong-Il about our resolve there.

2. Gun laws

Bush said he favored extension of the ban on assault weapons when he was campaigning but he was thrilled that the Republicans in the House have blocked the bill from coming up for a vote and the ban will expire. Kerry is more likely to favor sensible gun control laws than Bush.

3. Patriot Act

Bush likes it. Kerry, along with most Democrats and several moderate Republicans, thinks that there are a few provisions that need to be modified to protect constitional rights -- more judicial review and reasonable restrictions on unlimited access to your library records, medical records, etc.

4. Medical Marijuana

Bush is against medical marijuana and his Attorney General has ordered DEA raids on medical marijuana providers and patients in states that have passed laws permitting medical marijuana. Kerry has promised to suspend all of these DEA raids in those states where medical marijuana is legal. He and Sen. Kennedy have asked the U.S. D.E.A. to approve a proposal from the University of Massachusetts to manufacture marijuana for FDA-approved medical marijuana research.

Far more important than medical marijuana, Kerry has promised to immediately lift the ban on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research.

[Samper]

What does Kerry consider to be sensible gun laws?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Samper

What does Kerry consider to be sensible gun laws?

I said "Kerry is more likely to favor sensible gun control laws than Bush." I could just as well have said that the NRA would rather see Bush in the White House or that Diane Feinstein is not likely to receive any campaign contributions from the NRA.

It is extremely unlikely that any candidate for national office will stray too far from the center on this issue.

[Ninong]

Schrocat,

Have you noticed how the Bushies have changed the tone of their denials in the past couple of days? They no longer insist that there is no connection between the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush and the campaign. They now argue that there are obvious ties between both parties and the various 527's that support their campaigns.

It's really just politics as usual but the media coverage is more intense than it used to be and this has led to a focus on the campaign tactics rather than the campaign issues. Check this out: http://sfgate.com/columnists/fiore/

[Samper]

...........now with more slime. IT's sad but true.
I honestly don't know what to do this year.