Touchy subject...

[Samper]

I grew up in a church that doesn't believe in evolution per se. Since I have found this hobby I've seen more than enough evidence to argue with any religious type that atleast some of their beliefs are wrong. Has this hobby had this sort of affect on any of you guys? The science is in our face and to be honest I don't know what to believe anymore. Just thought I'd share that cause it's been bothering me lately.
Thoughts?

[scubadude]

No doubt there definately is some evolving going on in our tanks, however it is still my belief that creation supercedes evolution. I dont care how many things I see that I have never seen before in my tank there is still an alpha and an omega. Im a christian and firm believer in God and Jesus Christ. Faith is the missing link and underestimated concept to creation IMO. You can be a believer in both Creation and Evolution dont let anyone tell you differently. I also believe that God created things to evolve. I believe Ninong had a thread not too long ago from a church that despised certain reef creatures that where hermaphrodites or unisex individuals that created a bad image for our familys so the church was trying to pass reef tanks on as being evil or something . Ninong if you read this can you dig that thread up and reference it here?

Geez you are right this may open up a can of worms

[Samper]

I was hesitant to discuss religion but I was just curious what you guys thought since we all have a common interest here.

[zhenya]

I was hesitant to discuss religion but I was just curious what you guys thought since we all have a common interest here.

Common in what sense,Samper? Reeftanks? Religion?
I can discuss reeftanks untill I'm blue in the face but I prefer not to discuss my religion with anyone, except fellow believers in the same religion perhaps and not very often. I feel that religion is a very personal thing, reasonable discussions very seldom happen over internet but heated and argumentative more then you'd want to participate in. However, if anyone wants to discuss this in a friendly and constructive manner, do it to your hearts content

[Samper]

The common interest would be reefkeeping. I was just curious what you guys thought about this subject since many of you have seen and learned things by watching your reef and reading that may contradict the things you were taught and grew up accepting. I was wandering how some of you have dealt with this. I completely respect you and your decision to not participate if that is what you wish zhenya.

[Ninong]

I believe Ninong had a thread not too long ago from a church that despised certain reef creatures that where hermaphrodites or unisex individuals that created a bad image for our familys so the church was trying to pass reef tanks on as being evil or something . Ninong if you read this can you dig that thread up and reference it here?

Nope, that wasn't me. In fact, I don't think that was even on this board, was it?

Geez you are right this may open up a can of worms

Yes, any discussion of evolution usually ends up as a flame fest. That's the topic most responsible for Reef Central deciding to ban religion, politics and world events from The Lounge.

[Ninong]

Samper,

You haven't said so, but I will assume that you were raised in the religion of your parents. I will make the further assumption that you belong to a Christian denomination, although you haven't said that either. Making that assumption, I can then go on to the source of the problem, the interpretation of the Bible.

Some Christian denominations still believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, specifically the Book of Genesis' version of creation. Other Christian denominations have moved to an interpretation that permits the acceptance of evolution as the mechanism for creation.

The Catholic Church, for example, now accepts evolution. The Pope finally came out and said so late in the 20th. century. Another thing that the Vatican did late in the last century was to finally reverse Galileo's heresy conviction. Yes, it took them almost four hundred years but they wanted to be certain that the Earth actually did revolve around the Sun and not the other way around. Galileo was forced to renounce Copernican theory and accept house arrest for the rest of his life in order to avoid being burned at the stake. At that time -- late 16th., early 17th. centuries -- the official position of the Church was that the Earth was the center of the universe. The very idea that the Earth revolved around the Sun was heresy. It was bad enough that Christopher Columbus had started people thinking that perhaps the Earth was not really flat but now they had this highly respected scientist, a member of the Medici court, epousing the Copernican theory of the solar system.

It is almost laughable today to hear people refer to "the Copernican theory" as a theory because almost everyone accepts the fact that the Earth actually does orbit the Sun. It was anything but a laughing matter 400 years ago.

What's the point, you ask? The point is that religions themselves evolve. They have to or they would cease to exist. Not many people would pay much attention to a church that told them the Earth was the center of the universe and the sun, moon and stars simply passed through the sky every night above a flat, stationary Earth. But people actually believed that for a very long time, which is why "heaven" is referred to as a place in the sky -- in the heavens, as one might say.

Some religions that have finally given up on the belief that the Sun revolves around the Earth nevertheless still insist that the Earth is only several thousand years old. A literal interpretation of the Bible causes them to believe a lot of things that most people consider nothing more than fairy tales -- Noah's ark and "the flood" for example. It's rather difficult to get through any biology or geology classes and defend the Noah's ark theory to your classmates. The best explanation is to simply say that Genesis was mistranslated a long, long time ago. Otherwise you have to defend the idea that it had never rained on Earth before the flood, some 4600 years ago. Then you have to explain how Noah and his three sons could labor for 120 years building a wooden boat only 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high. Then there is the little problem of explaining how such a boat could hold a pair of every living thing, plus food and water for 40 days, plus Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. I guess if Santa Claus can fit billions of toys in his sleigh, then Noah can fit zillions of animals in his little boat. Then there is the little problem of explaining how the oceans became so salty in only 4600 years. According to Genesis there were no oceans before the flood filled the deepest depressions in the earth creating the oceans. And, of course, it's hard to explain how Noah lived to be 950 years old unless you resort to trickery, like saying it was a mathematical error in translation. Better to just say that the Noah's Ark theory is just a myth and not something to be taken seriously but that will get you in big trouble because Jesus confirmed the story of Noah and the flood in Matthew 24:37-39. So if you reject the Noah's Ark theory of evolution, you are rejecting something that Jesus preached directly to his disciples. Maybe Matthew was confused? But that's not possible, is it? So now you're back to square one. Unless you accept the idea that the New Testament reflects the state of knowledge and understanding of the world prevalent at the time of its authors. This allows you to skip over anything that is obviously impossible based on current knowledge. I have a feeling that your church probably prefers the Noah's Ark theory of evolution rather than Darwin's theory of evolution. Probably not a good idea to bring it up unless you're thinking of leaving.

Perhaps you could accept the version of evolution that some of the major Christian denominations now teach? In that version, you are allowed to accept that the universe is 12-14 billion years old, that the solar system is 6 billion years old and that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old as long as you accept the concept of The Creator, otherwise known as God or Allah. That way you no longer have to buy into the six days business. You can even accept the evolution of species, including man, as long as you believe that God was responsible and that at a certain point he endowed man with an immortal soul. That last part is the tricky part that they hate to talk about very much. The old Adam and Eve story was so much easier to explain from the standpoint of the Church.

Anyway, that would give you an out, if you want one. Just say you believe in evolution but you believe God did it all. Look, the Mormons have a great out when it comes to embryonic stem cell research. They're for it. All six U.S. Senators (five Republicans and one Democrat) who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints support the idea of embryonic stem cell research even though they are against abortion. The Catholic church and most fundamentalist Protestant denominations are against embryonic stem cell research on the grounds that human life begins at the moment of conception. Therefore, the destruction of a bunch of cells that are only two or three days old amounts to murder because you are destroying an immortal soul. The Mormons have a really neat way around that. They claim that all children reside in heaven with God until it is time for them to come down to Earth to take up residence in human form. They don't come down from heaven until after the fertilized egg has attached itself inside the womb and become viable. Therefore, it's OK to use pre-embryos that were grown in a petri dish because they don't have their souls yet. Neat, huh? That way they can be staunchly anti-abortion and for embryonic stem cell research at the same time.

Isn't it great that each of us just happens to believe in the one true religion? And isn't it convenient that it is invariably the same as the religion of our parents? What a remarkable coincidence. What are the odds that everyone would choose the right religion out of the hundreds of choices available and that that religion would be the same one our parents chose?

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"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of reason rather than that of blindfolded fear." -- Thomas Jefferson

[Poseidon]

I'll chime in here, like Gene I have my own views of religion. Mine is just not very popular... ;; I believe in a God, and you can call him/her WHATEVER name you want, but don't try and force me to believe what you believe, because we are both entitled to our own opinions. I was raised Catholic went to cathloic schools for 13 years. (Including Kindergarten) With all the hypocrisy in our Diocese and priests being rushed out in the dark after charges of sexual abuse, I have lost faith in Catholicism, but not in a God... At one point in my life I thought all organized religions were for people with low self-esteem. That way they could go to a place and be told they were "right" in their belief's by other people that believe the same thing...

[Samper]

Thank you to everyone who replied to this thread. This will be the last time I discuss religion here. I needed some intelligent people with the same interests as myself to help me figure out what I believe. I find my beliefs changing more and more as I grow but a few of them still hold fast. Thank you guys.;)