[Samper]

I was in a small pet store today. These guys deal with all sorts of animals but they have a small wall dealing with saltwater. I've been in several times and have gotten pretty disgusted due to the fact that these people have no clue what they are doing. I'm new to the hobby but am learning as much as I can so I engaged the owner in conversation. After about two hours of me talking he basically offered me a job taking care of this section of his shop. His wall consists of about 20 display tanks ranging from 20-55 gallons. All of them are running crushed coral and UGFs with very little circulation. I told the guy to come up with a budget for me to work with and I'd square him away. The first thing I'm going to do is remove all the crushed coral and UGF's and thoroughly clean his tanks out. Then I'm going to either order a bunch of southdown for substrate or just go bare bottom. Which would you guys do? I'm going to put a small heater and a mj 1200 in each tank but I don't know what the best way to filter these tanks would be. I thought about small hang on cartridge filters but don't know if this is the best solution. Nothing is plumbed together and there isn't room to do it so that might be my only option. I will have two dedicated 55 gallons for q tanks and a 75 reef ready to make him a nice display of lps and softies. His lighting is all flourescent over the wall but for fish only this is fine. I will have to order some lighting for the 75 but this shouldn't be a problem. I'm about to have a lot of responsibility over this section and I could use some advice from you guys on the best way to take care of it. I have a head full of ideas but have never had this much water to deal with before. LMK your thoughts and ideas.

oh yeah. He only has about $600 in total sales each month for the SW section so it's not like I'm dealing with crazy amounts of animals. I'd like to double or triple his monthly sales so whatever insight you guys have I'd appreciate it. I'm looking at this as a precursor to me owning my own shop one day.

[Poseidon]

First thing to consider before you take out all the UGF's is water quality! You don't want to throw these tanks into cycles all over again. I would start getting some good live rock or base rock or heck even the dry "lace rock" and place them in the tanks so they can start a bacteria bed. I think Bare bottom would be ideal for a store set up, BUT with inventory moving in and out all the time I think it would be a tough act with all seperate tanks. As fish "come in" you will have a NH3 spike in each tank as the bio load increases. As they go out the bacteria die off and NH3 goes up again... I think best possible solution is plumb them all together somehow, and run them all into a HUGE sump with at least 100-150# of good liverock then back to the bare bottom tanks. You may need 2 or even 3 HUGE pumps to accomplish this and ball valves on each tanks return...

Then you could get ONE HUGE skimmer to do the whole system...

Baby crying... be back later!

[Samper]

Plumbing them together is out of the question. It's a simple setup that he's running and he wants to spruce it all up but not spend loads of money. Room is also an issue. I'm gonna help out any possible but he hasn't given me a budget to work with yet so we'll see what he comes up with. I was thinking bare bottom would be good but then again I was thinking a dsb in each one with a nice piece or two of LR would help out with the spikes? Basically it looks like I'll be maintaining these tanks like each one is a seperate system. In a way I like this idea but in other ways I don't.

[Poseidon]

I guess best possible solution would be bare bottom with LR then. Most LFS like to use Copper in their tanks though, as a preventitive measure. That may impact whether or not you can use rock. I would stay away from DSB in a store, to much change to fast...

[Samper]

I won't be running copper in anything except the q/holding tank.

[Poseidon]

Originally Posted by Samper

I won't be running copper in anything except the q/holding tank.

Ya but has copper been ran in the tanks up to now? If so that will add an additional step to the clean up... Ninong had a link, let me see if I can find it...here I knew he had a formula, but thought it was more detailed. Maybe he will chime in and help with that part...

[saltjunkie]

ok, bare bottom is the best way to go, you are selling fish, not giving them homes. Next, put some kind of decoration in each tank for the fish to hide around to feel more secure, what i would do, is cut inventory some. Clean out 3 or so tanks at a time and redo them, in the mean time, get tank dividers if you need to, or just cut back on the orders first You will want bare bottom for maintenace. next, get a few HOB skimers.Move them from tank to tank over every few days just to help. Heaters and small powerheads will help,Dont go overboard with spending, that will get you to the door quicker than you came in. yo uare there to move product, not keep it around.

[Samper]

5 of the tanks have had various meds and Cu in them so I'll clean em out real good and use two of the 55s for holding. I was thinking bare bottom would be the best way to go so I'll do that. I'm gonna order about 400lbs of rock from Hirocks and about a 100lbs from walt smith to get them started. I'm excited guys this is a good opportunity for me. I also get to set up a reef tank for the guy consisting of lps and softies. This will also give me the chance to set up my own system a little cheaper.

Keep the advice coming and thanks.

[Samper]

Well I started working at the shop today. I only work from 4-7pm Mon - Thurs. Friday I work from noon to 7pm. Saturday I work all day. I am also going to offer to maintain customers tanks on the side. The owner has no problem with this.

I have some serious issues that I'd like to discuss though.
This guy sets almost all of his customers up with some sort of UGF or Wet/dry filtration.
He tells every customer that any of the following medicines are a sure fire cure for various parasites and infections.
Organicure, Scat Cure, Marinoomed made by tetra, Clout, and some sort of Kent parasite guard.
All these "magic cures" on hand and nearly every tank he owns has ich hmmm.

I told him he was going to have to do some things different. He is adament about keeping half the wall set up with UGFs and CC. He gave the other half to me and told me to divide my section in half and put sand in half and bare in the other half so he could see what he liked better.
I convinced him to give me 1 55 and 2 40breeders to use as q/treatment tanks but he says we can't always use them due to the amount of fish coming in and that as much as I won't like it we will have to use medicines at times.
He doesn't have room behind the tanks to hang skimmers but is willing to order a few to rotate around and hang on the front. The guy says we will have problems with the fire marshall if he sees the skimmers out in the open or something. I didn't really understand that whole part of the conversation maybe you guys have some input.

Another thing........Is there a for sure way to get a mandarin to eat frozen food? He says he has one and will teach it to me. For now I convinced him to move the mandarin he had in a 20g with 8 lbs of base rock to his larger 90g setup and about 120lbs of rock. If his sure fire way of getting them to eat worked so well I don't know why I talked him into moving the mandarin so easily.

A puffer in the store has something that looks like a wart on it's head. Tomorrow supposedly he is going to cut the wart off and use some sort of paint to close the wound. Says he has done it plenty of times and that the fish will be ok. I'm not so sure.

He has some sort of tang that I haven't figured out what it is yet but it has a large spot on its body that looks like it's bleaching or something. The color is definately fading and the spot is a pretty good size. What could this be and what might I do about it?

What do you guys know about a goatfish? He has one that I think is pretty sweet. It does this thing with its whiskers on the rocks, sort of vibrates really fast and I haven't figured out what it's doing yet. The fish also changes from a creme color to having rusty red vertical stripes. Very interesting but looks like it may grow to be rather large.


Anyway he was talking to a few of his sales reps on the phone and bragging about how he was excited to have someone around who knew something about the hobby. I wasn't supposed to hear but I did and atleast I know he's partially listening to me. He's an oldtimer and set in his ways but I'd like to show him how to do things right and increase his profits at the same time without making all his past mistakes. The poor fish in his shop.......if you could only see. This opportunity is great for someone like me though. Every fish that comes through that store you can bet I'll be researching so I'll keep the board busy with questions. Hope you guys don't mind.

[Samper]

I figured out what the goatfish was doing with its barbels but not what species it is. I'll try to get a pic.

[Poseidon]

Sounds like you are going to have fun.... Just remember that not everyone in this hobby really cares like we do. When I worked at a LFS I had people that would buy whatever they thought was cool, no regard for the welfare of the fish at all... SOme even said things like, "if it dies, I'll just buy another one..." Stuff like that. Others will already know everything and you can't help them no matter what you say, and about 10-15% will actually listen! They may even heed your advise and NOT buy something once in a while...

[Samper]

I'm going to start taking care of a few peoples systems in my spare time also. The owner of this shop set them up then became too busy to take care of em so I'm gonna take over. I'm nervous to see what these tanks look like cause I know it's gonna make me sick. I don't wanna talk bad about the owner or make him look bad since he's giving me this opportunity but it's gonna be hard to get these people to change some things that they were told were perfectly ok.

[Ninong]

You can't make money in a "mom and pop" fish store. So get over that idea in a hurry. You would need a fairly large operation with mall-type floor traffic to even have a shot at making money. Most fail. You could do it for the "fun" of it but don't plan on getting rich unless you are willing to go bigtime and risk tons of money.

Not all fish stores run copper. Some do, some don't. I would never buy fish from a store than ran copper all the time in their fish holding tanks because that much exposure to copper would damage their immune systems and reproductive systems for starters. I don't think copper should be used as a prophylactive. It is best reserved for treating specific conditions on a short-term basis when other remedies are not available.

I wouldn't use fine particle sand beds in tanks that are being set up to hold fish. I think something larger, such as Carib-Sea's reef-flor (or whatever they call it) would be better. You can't set up a functional fine particle deep sand bed in a small holding tank overloaded with fish. You will have to rely on other means of filtration. I don't believe I have ever heard of a shop that set up individual holding tanks on separate filtration systems. I believe a sand substrate is better than bare bottom for fish holding tanks but I don't think something like Southdown would work because it would be impossible to maintain because of the fine particles. You cannot set up 30-gal fish holding tanks with live rock and DSBs and expect the live rock and sand to function the same as they would in a typical FOWLR or reef tank. For starters, you don't want very much live rock (if any) in a fish holding tank or you wouldn't be able to catch the fish. All you want is enough live rock (or dead decorations) to provide minimal shelter so that your fish are not overly stressed.

The "wart" you are asking about is probably lymphocystis. It is caused by a virus and is similar to warts on people. It is usually only a problem if it gets out of hand and causes problems for the fish in eating, etc. They are often found on the lower jaw. They can pop up even in systems with pristine water conditions. If left alone, they will usually go away eventually. Some people prefer to remove them by picking them off or slicing them off with a razor blade. The problem with that is that you could expose the fish to secondary infection -- which is why he is talking about applying a topical antibiotic to the wound.

Where is the "faded spot" located on the tang? Is it along the lateral line? If so, it is HLLE (head and lateral line erosion). Feed the tang fresh broccoli that has been blanched in simmering water for 30 seconds or frozen first to soften it up. You should also feed it lots of spirulina or nori soaked in Selcon or similar vitamins. HLLE is caused by poor nutrition and poor water conditions.

[Samper]

Originally Posted by Ninong

You can't make money in a "mom and pop" fish store. So get over that idea in a hurry. You would need a fairly large operation with mall-type floor traffic to even have a shot at making money. Most fail. You could do it for the "fun" of it but don't plan on getting rich unless you are willing to go bigtime and risk tons of money.

The guy moves about $600 in fish each month. It's not a lot but if I can improve his sales double I'd be ecstatic. On top of that I'll be maintaining some systems on the side for customers. I hope to get a nice business of my own on the side just taking care of these other guys systems.

Originally Posted by Ninong

Not all fish stores run copper. Some do, some don't. I would never buy fish from a store than ran copper all the time in their fish holding tanks because that much exposure to copper would damage their immune systems and reproductive systems for starters. I don't think copper should be used as a prophylactive. It is best reserved for treating specific conditions on a short-term basis when other remedies are not available.

Do you feel that putting incoming livestock in a tank treated with Cu for 3-4 days would be any benefit? I'm trying to get all his systems running better and lessen the changes of future parasitic outbreaks.

The substrate is an ongoing debate between us. In my treatment tanks I'm running no lighting, no substrate or decoration. Only a heater and water treated with Cu. In my half of the wall I now don't know what I should do as far as substrate goes. You say fine particle sand isn't the best option. Could I go with CC and no UGF and just keep it all vacuumed real well or should I just stick with the UFGs for now and try to maintain them a little better?


For the "wart" on the puffer....is this a standard procedure for many shops? Sounds like as long as he seals the wound the fish will be ok.

Originally Posted by Ninong

Where is the "faded spot" located on the tang? Is it along the lateral line? If so, it is HLLE (head and lateral line erosion). Feed the tang fresh broccoli that has been blanched in simmering water for 30 seconds or frozen first to soften it up. You should also feed it lots of spirulina or nori soaked in Selcon or similar vitamins. HLLE is caused by poor nutrition and poor water conditions.

The spot is around the eye and the lateral line so I'll advise him on a better diet cause it really is a beautiful fish. Thanks again Ninong.

[ClintoninCali]

I like what someone said above about getting cured live rock, even lace rock, in there right away and getting the UGFs out as soon as possible. Imagine the amount of waste accumulated under those plates since he set up those filters! Cleaning that out will get rid of tons of phosphates and any algae problems you had before will be greatly lessened for sure. The store where I work grosses about 1500 a week in fish sales but we make more than 5 times that in the tank services around town so good idea with starting up that area of business. Too bad you can't use a tank or two to plumb everything together. That would solve evey problem you have. As far as the fire marshall getting you guys in trouble for skimmers being in the open that is the biggest load I have ever heard. My store has open ponds on the display floor and no one ever says a thing. Anyway, good luck.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Samper

Do you feel that putting incoming livestock in a tank treated with Cu for 3-4 days would be any benefit?

Some places do that. Some places run copper all the time in their fish-only tanks. I wouldn't buy fish from either of them if I knew they were doing that.

The substrate is an ongoing debate between us. In my half of the wall I now don't know what I should do as far as substrate goes. You say fine particle sand isn't the best option. Could I go with CC and no UGF and just keep it all vacuumed real well or should I just stick with the UFGs for now and try to maintain them a little better?

I wouldn't run UGFs but I suppose some places still do. You could use crushed coral if you want to, I just don't care for it myself. If you do use it, keep it shallow -- less than 1".

For the "wart" on the puffer....is this a standard procedure for many shops?

I have no idea. I assume the reason he wants to remove it is to make the fish more attractive for sale.

[Samper]

That is the exact reason he wants to do it.

[saltjunkie]

well it looks like you are on your way...But remember.. it is his shop and he has been doing it for years.. he sells stuff that makes money...UGF.. less than 20 bucks.. everybody can afford one of those.. even uneducated fish buyers...Not all your customers can afford a 10 gallon tank with a 60 dollar filter.
no matter how much you like it or not..you cant push sales out the door because you dont want them to buy cheaper filtration...-And you will find most LFS still push wet/drys.remembr.. he wants advice.. but it is his store..
And last.. tanl maintenance.. there is a BIG liability there.. no matter what has happened or what was wrong before.. if a fish dies.. or a coral YOU will be responsible for it..it could be 3 weeks later.... they will call you at the store.. you were here 3 weeks ago.. all my fish were fine.. now 2 are dead.. what are YOU going to do about it.. and before you know it.. YOU will be buying fish for theese people who cant do their own tanks...
Be very careful what you are getting into!

[Samper]

If this guy even tries to blame for me any problems he has after all my recommendations I might just be forced to punch him in the mouth.

Oh I heard a line yesterday that made my eye twitch a little.

Shop owner to customer,
These guys on the forums that give you advice are just hobbyists, they don't really know for the most part what they can and can't do with an aquarium. The shop owners like myself are experts cause we have been doing it for so long. Make sure you take their advice with a grain of salt.


I caught the guy coming out of the door and game him this website.
I'm sure I'll get fired for doing something like that eventually.

[ClintoninCali]

If you're a store owner and not a hobbyist, you're in the wrong line of work...