[Ninong]

We have teachers down here in Louisiana that force their public elementary school students to pray to Jesus every day before lunch. That particular teacher was told that she cannot do that but only after complaints were made public. The same school district insists on saying Christian prayers before school board meetings and high school athletic games in defiance of previous court rulings. That's probably headed for the U.S. Supreme Court. http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=834908&page=1

Don't forget, Louisiana is the state that passed a law requiring the teaching of so-called creation science as an alternative to evolution in biology classes. That law was overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court.

They seem to have a problem passing a state law banning cock fighting. They love their redneck blood sports down here. And let's not loose sight of the fact that this redneck parish is only one that Republican David Duke actually carried in his last attempt at national political office. He was running for the first district congressional seat vacated by disgraced Republican House Majority Leader-elect Bob Livingston.

[schrocat]

Penguin,

Sheesh!
Thanks for the terrifying links!

Seriously, I'm blaming you if I can't sleep tonight.

[Ninong]

The Holy Inquisition is alive and well in some parts of the world: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...5E1702,00.html

Be sure to read the whole thing, especially the very last paragraph.

[Ninong]

Looks like the Church is back in the business of inventing it's own science again: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/sc...rtner=homepage

That version is new. That is not the same as what they have accepted for the past nine years. Pope John Paul II accepted evolution without restrictions provided it was also taught that it was all God's plan. Now all of a sudden they're uncomfortable with the mechanisms. They're beginning to sound a lot like the ID proponents.

[orion]

I have always believed that religion (speaking of organized religion) is ladened in rhetoric and thought control. It is absurd for the most part as there is no evidence to support it that I have ever seen. Yet people flock to it in hoards and hold on to it with both hands.

I for one am a strong proponent of seperation of church and state and believe that any building, book, law, or anything else that is owned or payed fro with tax payers dollars should have no link to religion, doctrine of religion, sect, or anything else related to the supernatural!

When I think about the people falling backwards when they are touched by some mortal I think, "wow are you susceptible to just about anything!". It is in part a psyco-somatic experience they are having and some are more prone to it than others.

I think about people talking to "god" whom ever you hold that to be in public or politicians writing laws based in religious ideology and this is my conclusion: Religion is the only context that one can speak to and count on something / someone that is not "real" and not be diagnosed with schizophrenia!! hallucination, delusions, speaking in ones own language (tongues) are all acceptable so long as they are shielded in religion!

On the other hand I believe in a sense of personal spirituality. I think if "god" is out there and watching all of this he is certainly ashamed that wars are fought in his name, that childen die in his name, that people oppress in his name, that George Bush is Killing the innocent and standing on his name! If there is a hell I hope they reserve the worst part for Mr. Bush and all the other politicians and "Holy" men who get fat and wealthy on the innocent, infirmed, and poor!!

[schrocat]

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by orion

I think if "god" is out there and watching all of this he is certainly ashamed that wars are fought in his name, that childen die in his name, that people oppress in his name, that George Bush is Killing the innocent and standing on his name! If there is a hell I hope they reserve the worst part for Mr. Bush and all the other politicians and "Holy" men who get fat and wealthy on the innocent, infirmed, and poor!!

In other words, who would Jesus bomb?

[orion]

Exactly!! and I am not

Think about the world you live in today and just think about where it will be tommorow. I think teh world is about to become and even scarier place (for lack of a better word) than it is because of men like George Bush who are blatent about their religious convictions and it shows in there public and foreign policy. Religion is not reality based thinking and call me looney but I think believing in the invisible man is pretty damn crazy!

[schrocat]

Orion...I wasn't calling you looney.

Sorry for the confusion!

[orion]

Originally Posted by schrocat

Orion...I wasn't calling you looney.

Sorry for the confusion!

I get a little hot about this subjest sometimes because I just cannot understand why people (the masses) follow so few like lemmings without questioning anything. The Roman-Catholic church controls so much in the world as do the other religions. Religion is a personal thing as far as I understand it and should not become part of any policy to govern the diverse group of people on planet earth. Doing so is exclusionary and not fair and will certainly always lead to a conflict of interest.

I am not a fatalist but if things do not change soon I think those of us who tend to be "thinkers" will find ourselves in a bad way. Speaking up for your rights and speaking out against these "man made doctrines" of faith and morality could prove dangerous. If George Bush had his way Billy Graham and the likes would be the only programming on TV, radio, and the internet. The Bible would be required reading in every english class in a public school if it intended to recieve government funding of any kind. Evilution as the right calls it would be outlawed and the seven day theory would rein!

One of my others hobbies has been astronomy throughout the years. Four years ago I bought a very nice cadiodioptic telescope for observing. I read a few periodicals monthly and have read some books on the nature of the universe and its evolution. There is evidence taht supports all of the information presented. I challenge any priest, pastor, pope, or president to provide evidence for the seven day theory! Now the right is trying to impose something called "Intelligent Design". I need to actually read about this though before I can comment further on what it truly is theorizing.

[orion]

I just think religion is and always will be a personal relationship that one has with whom ever they hold "God" to be. To use it incite War and hatred is to twist the very thing it teaches "love and tolerance" into the very things it warns against.

To be honest I wrestle with this daily. In one hand I have science and things that can be measured but on the other hand I have all the things I do not understand and have no way to explain. Thats why religion is such a personal experience and should be treated as such IMO.

[schrocat]

Originally Posted by orion

I just think religion is and always will be a personal relationship that one has with whom ever they hold "God" to be. To use it incite War and hatred is to twist the very thing it teaches "love and tolerance" into the very things it warns against.

To be honest I wrestle with this daily. In one hand I have science and things that can be measured but on the other hand I have all the things I do not understand and have no way to explain. Thats why religion is such a personal experience and should be treated as such IMO.

ID is a joke.
It piggybacks effortlessly on years of scientific data by simply filling in any unknown in biology\evolution with "God was obviously here".

I just wish I could get my pea brain to understand string theory...

"Love and tolerance" (unfortunately) became laughable, effiminate words associated with liberals like Jesus sometime around 1994.
Instead of being used by clergy, they are used by right wing shills in mocking attacks.

I can't grasp that either...

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by orion

Now the right is trying to impose something called "Intelligent Design". I need to actually read about this though before I can comment further on what it truly is theorizing.

Intelligent Design is nothing more than an attempt to get creationism into the classrooms. The same folks who tried to make the teaching of creationism mandatory in public schools switched gears after the Supreme Court threw out Louisiana's "Creationism Act." That act would have required the teaching of so-called creation science as an alternative to science (evolution) whenever science was taught in public elementary and secondary schools. Schools were not required to teach creation science but if they chose to teach science (evolution), then they were required to give equal treatment to creation "science."

The Supreme Court overturned that law in Edwards v. Aguillard. The vote was 7-2 with Rehnquist and Scalia dissenting. Clarence Thomas was not yet on the court. Justice Antonin "Opus Dei" Scalia favors the teaching of faith-based science in public schools. He also favors prayer in public schools. One thing he does not favor is abortion under any circumstances. He is a very conservative Catholic of the pre-Vatican II variety. His son is a priest.

After the court ruled against the teaching of creation "science" in 1987, the people who were pushing it came up with the idea of Intelligent Design. They admit that this was developed as a wedge issue to try to get local school boards to admit this new version of creationism. They are so incredibly stupid it is beyond comprehension but they somehow believe that if you take out the words "God" or "Creator" and substitute "Intelligent Design," that it is no longer a religious theory. They gave up on the idea of pushing the literal 7-day Genesis version of creation and avoid talk of Noah and his ark but what they are trying to do instead is to say that life is too complex to have evolved without the guiding hand of an Intelligent Designer (God) who stepped in from time to time to lend a hand. They no longer get bogged down in the details of exactly how long the process took and they don't even bother to say exactly when the Intelligent Designer's help was required.

They are pushing this idea in Topeka, Kansas right now in an attempt to get the school board to admit Intelligent Design as an alternative to science. They are expected to succeed because the new majority on the school board ran on a platform supporting Creationism, Intelligent Design, school prayer and all the other right-wing religious issues. The school board will probably come up with a new definition of science. I kid you not. They are not at all pleased with the definition of science as proposed by scientists. In fact, they have little use for scientists at all. Science rules out supernatural explanations and is therefore considered a threat to their faith. Science promotes secularism and philosophical materialism and is therefore not to be trusted by "people of faith." They don't think science should be limited to naturalistic explanations. They don't believe science should rely solely on empirical evidence. Their version of "science" would include supernatural explanations whereever they find it appropriate and in keeping with their religious dogma.

Most fundamentalist Christian sects do not accept evolution. Many of them still believe in the literal translation of the Book of Genesis as the only true explanation of the origins of man and the universe. That is, they believe in special creation, they believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and they believe in the Noah's ark myth. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are two examples of fundamentalist ministers who proclaim that they believe that every word of the Bible (Old & New Testaments) is literally true. Many Christian sects do accept evolution although some of them add their own peculiar caveat lector. For example, the Catholic church, until very recently, accepted Darwin's version of evolution provided you accepted the idea that this was the way God decided to do it. Then, all of a sudden, one of the Cardinals (a close friend of Benedict XVI) comes out and expresses reservations about the mechanisms of Darwinian evolution. This is definitely a new spin that was not mentioned nine years ago when John Paul II first mentioned the church's acceptance of evolution.

Creation science is not science and Intelligent-Design Creationism is not science. The people who favor these things are the same people who think that they own the White House right now. They will accept nothing less than the nomination of new Supreme Court justices who are guaranteed to overturn Roe v. Wade, overturn the ban on prayer in public schools and permit the teaching of the Bible and creation science in public schools. They argue that the Bible should be taught in history classes!

The president has already stated that he answers to "a higher father." He gave that response when a reporter asked whether he had discussed his decision to invade Iraq with his father, the former president. He also said that he was engaged in a crusade. Karl Rove advised him after that little slip to NEVER use that word again. He has mentioned several times in private conversations that he has been called by God to take on this struggle against the evildoers. This is what God had in mind for him when he saved him at the tender age of 40 from his former wicked ways.

[orion]

I had a friend in the Army who read Quantum Theory text as a hobby (imagine that) and once tried to explain String Theory to me as well. Chris (my friend) was a paradox. He has to be one of teh smartest people I have ever come across. We were both 18 years old! I was going to be a Combat Medic then a Nurse and he was there to be an 18 foxtrot (I think that is the MOS number). He wanted to parachute in behind enemy lines and recon for the artillery and paint targets for air strikes! He did go onto college though (thankfully) and is working for some think tank now out East.

I know that astrophysicist have discovered a way to measuer the time from the big bang in theory through the microwave background energy that it produced. According to what I have read this energy decays at a known rate. I have read a few short explanations for the Big Bang but still have trouble with the point of origin portion. This is where it gets tricky for me. I understand that all the matter and dark matter was super compressed into something so tiny it is hard to imagine and then when this reached critical mass BOOM and the Universe began. I just have a hard time with how it got there in the first place!

Have you read the theory for how time will end (not revelations)? That made the hair on my neck stand up!

[orion]

Creation science is not science and Intelligent-Design Creationism is not science. The people who favor these things are the same people who think that they own the White House right now. They will accept nothing less than the nomination of new Supreme Court justices who are guaranteed to overturn Roe v. Wade, overturn the ban on prayer in public schools and permit the teaching of the Bible and creation science in public schools. They argue that the Bible should be taught in history classes!

The president has already stated that he answers to "a higher father." He gave that response when a reporter asked whether he had discussed his decision to invade Iraq with his father, the former president. He also said that he was engaged in a crusade. Karl Rove advised him after that little slip to NEVER use that word again. He has mentioned several times in private conversations that he has been called by God to take on this struggle against the evildoers. This is what God had in mind for him when he saved him at the tender age of 40 from his former wicked ways.

This is what I meant earlier by "Scary Place"! My wife and I were discussing the events in the world today at dinner with a blow up globe our little girl brought home! George W. Bush is an EVIL man! We both believe it. We were joking tonight about running fr the Mayor of Detroit (we live in the Ann Arbor Area) so we could charge 5K a month to the taxpayers and then complain that the city is broke!! Or even Congress so my wife can get a new Prada purse for everyday of the week on the publics tab!

Again life is an absurd place. I guess I am a liberal because I believe in equal rights for everyone, equal rights for same-sex couples, that marriage is an institution between two people who love one another and not something outlined in a book that has no basis in reality, that abortion is a personal choice and no one elses buisness, that a man and a women are competent to decide whats right for them. I believe that seperation of church and state is just that and I do not want someones beliefs about a super being pushed on my child. There may come a time when we decide to leave the country!

Moving (seroiusly) has come up a few times recently. We have thought about teh obvious (Canada) but also Australia as a possible choice if it comes to it. it would be worth it in the long run if we are allowed to maintain our personal freedoms and not be made to swallow the belief system of a sick, twisted group of people that can't accept the truth: It is impossible for life to have began from two people who were the results of spontaneous generation. Simple Genetics prove that this could not have happened the way the fundamentalist would have you believe.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by orion

Have you read the theory for how time will end (not revelations)? That made the hair on my neck stand up!

I don't think there is consensus on that issue yet. Everything depends on the total mass of the universe, including dark matter and dark energy. We also need a better understanding of gravity. Stephen Hawking, whom I admire a lot, addressed this topic in one of his public lectures some six years ago. You may find his hypothesis interesting: http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/lindex.html

Click on Public Lectures and then The Beginning of Time. His hypothesis when he gave that lecture is that the universe will eventually collapse. He may be correct but I don't believe we have all of the data yet to eliminate the other option, which would be a universe that expands forever and dies a cold, dark death. We need a better read on the total mass, including dark matter, and the nature of dark energy. And we need a better understanding of anti-gravity. Hawking's theory for the beginning of time is that it began with a quantum singularity, followed by inflation and then expansion -- what is popularly referred to as the Big Bang theory.

One of the leading figures in the field of precision cosmology that I have been following for several years is Max Tegmark: http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/index.html

Scientific American devoted an entire issue to string theory some time back. It was interesting but extremely complicated, since they decided to try to explain all of the competing string theories -- there are five. More recently the five different string theories, each of which had 10 dimensions, have been replaced by 11-dimension M theory. And M theory has morphed into a multi-brane theory of infinite parallel universes.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I don't think there is consensus on that issue yet. Everything depends on the total mass of the universe, including dark matter and dark energy. We also need a better understanding of gravity. Stephen Hawking, whom I admire a lot, addressed this topic in one of his public lectures some six years ago. You may find his hypothesis interesting: http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/lindex.html

Click on Public Lectures and then The Beginning of Time. His hypothesis when he gave that lecture is that the universe will eventually collapse. He may be correct but I don't believe we have all of the data yet to eliminate the other option, which would be a universe that expands forever and dies a cold, dark death. We need a better read on the total mass, including dark matter, and the nature of dark energy. And we need a better understanding of anti-gravity. Hawking's theory for the beginning of time is that it began with a quantum singularity, followed by inflation and then expansion. What is popularly referred to as the Big Bang theory.

One of the leading figures in the field of precision cosmology that I have been following for several years is Max Tegmark: http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/index.html

Scientific American devoted an entire issue to string theory some time back. It was interesting but extremely complicated, since they decided to try to explain all of the competing string theories -- there are five. More recently the five different string theories, each of which had 10 dimensions, have been replaced by 11-dimension M theory. And M theory has morphed into a multi-brane theory of infinite parallel universes.

The infinite expansion driven by dark energy is what I was referencing Nice to know others have atleast heard of it let alone read something about it

When I take the telescope out and try to explain to my daughter that the large red star in th eOrion constlellation is so much larger than our own Sun she looks at me like I am a nut LOL but I hope by exposing her young to whats out there she will learn to think for herself and not accept things just because someone tells her to.

I will look at the links and thanks for the information. Do you have a telescope also?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by orion

Do you have a telescope also?

I sold it in 1997. I had a Tele Vue Renaissance 4" APO Refractor. The Renaissance model was the brass version of the Genesis. I think those were replaced by the NP 101. They also offer the NP 127 now, which is a 5" APO Refractor: http://www.televue.com/engine/page.asp?ID=2

[Ninong]

National faith-based adoption agency says Catholics need not apply. They are not considered good Christians and the agency refuses to let them adopt.

Prospective adoptive couples in Mississippi were disappointed to learn that an agency that receives funds from the sale of Mississippi's Choose Life specialty car tags will not consider Catholics as adoptive parents. So all those Catholic right-to-lifers will probably want to get the state to issue new anti-abortion plates just for them since they're not considered acceptable Christians by some of the groups receiving state funds.

A private adoption agency, Bethany Christian Services has locations in 75 U.S. cities, including Jackson, Hattiesburg and Columbus.

The agency is one of 24 adoption and pregnancy counseling centers in the state that receives money from the sale of Choose Life car tags, which advocate against abortion.

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pb...507150380/1002

I wonder if they receive any of that federal faith-based initiative money? Bush has been doling out billions of dollars to various religious charities and they are specifically exempt from the usual non-discrimination in employment regulations that other organizations must abide by. In other words, they don't have to hire someone if doing so would offend their strongly held faith-based religious beliefs. And even if they do hire you, they can fire you for things like adultery that wouldn't get you fired at a secular organization. I had no idea that their strongly held faith-based religious beliefs could be the basis for refusing service. Most Christian charities that I know of will help anyone in need.

[Ninong]

I checked out that Bethany Christian Services' website and they don't specifically say that Catholics aren't considered Christians. http://www.bethany.org/A55798/bethan...256E3C006815D9

I guess it's just one of those things that all regular Christians already know. Maybe Catholics are considered the Antichrist, along with Episcopalians, Presbyterians and Methodists? We wouldn't want children being adopted by the Antichrist, would we?

You probably have to be a good Baptist like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Or maybe a Pentecostal like John Ashcroft? Maybe it helps if you can speak in tongues like Rev. Ashcroft's father and grandfather?

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them."-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991