[Ninong]

"In addition, the board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena."

I hope when this story is repeated in other parts of the civilized world, and it will be repeated over and over again, that people there realize that the IDiots who voted for this also voted for George W. Bush for President. All of the school board members who voted in favor of redefining science are Republicans. If they can succeed in undermining science in the public schools, they won't have as much of it to ignore once they achieve political power.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/11....ap/index.html

[dougc]

As part of the new Kansas Intelligent Design curriculum, students will no longer dissect a frog. They will create one from mud instead.

[Ninong]

I posted this in another thread back in August but I think it's worth repeating here:

I see where the Kansas state board of education is coming up with new workbooks for science classes. Here are a few of the new questions:

How old is the Earth?
(a) 4.5 billion years
(b) 10,000 years
(c) 6,500 years
(d) Any of the above.

The correct answer is (d) until you get into college, unless you plan on going to Bob Jones University or Liberty University, in which case the preferred answer is (c). Most colleges will insist that (a) is the correct answer but that's only because they employ left-wing, liberal, pinko commie professors.


What is the meaning of DNA?
(a) Deoxyribonucleic acid
(b) Genentech, a biotech company located in South San Francisco
(c) God
(d) Any of the above.

In Kansas, we prefer (c) but you will not be graded wrong if you chose (a). If you chose (b) several years ago, your daddy is probably very wealthy by now and you wouldn't be going to this lousy public school in Kansas. Students who chose (a) and (b) are probably headed for Stanford or Cal.


What causes global warming?
(a) God
(b) Global warming does not exist
(c) Excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere from the burning of fossil fuels
(d) Long-term climate cycles

In Kansas, we prefer either (a) or (b). You will not be graded wrong if you chose (d) but only if you answered (a) on the age of the Earth and your daddy works for an oil company that advised the Vice President on energy policy. If you answered (c), it means that your parents are probably liberals who hate our freedom.

[Ninong]

This may start a new trend in education. I mean, after all, in a democratic society, why should we teach only the views of the smart people. Aren't the stupid people's views entitled to equal representation?

Why should we let scientists tell us how to define science. What do they know? I heard that at least 98% of them don't even believe in Noah's Ark or the flood. And some of them don't accept the idea that Adam and Eve had pet dinosaurs either. It's a national disgrace, that's what it is. Thank goodness for Rev. Falwell and Rev. Robertson. What would we ever do without people like them.

Look on the bright side kids. Biology class will be so much shorter now. No need to get bogged down in details. God did it. Uh, excuse me, I meant to say "Intelligent Design" did it. If you don't know the answer to something, just write in "ID" did it and the teacher will have to accept your answer.

And if you have any questions about "Intelligent Design" that your teacher can't answer to your satisfaction, just contact our expert: Dr. Jonathan Wells, Ph.D., who has doctorates in both theology and biology. He was our expert witness and we found him to be an excellent source of valuable mythinformation.

P.S. -- Dr. Wells believes that Rev. Sun Myung Moon is the messiah, but it's OK if you believe someone else is the messiah. "Father's words, my studies and my prayers convinced me that I should devote my life to destroying Darwinisn." (Note: Sun Myung Moon has taken the title of "Great Father.")

[Ninong]

Looks like they won't have to teach "Intelligent Design" in the Dover, Pennsylvania school district after all. http://www.ydr.com/story/doverbiology/51833/

All eight Republican Neanderthals on the school board were defeated by eight Democrats this evening, thus proving Darwin's theory of evolution. It was a clean sweep.

[schrocat]

Originally Posted by Ninong

All eight Republican Neanderthals on the school board were defeated by eight Democrats this evening. It was a clean sweep.

Let the house cleaning begin...

[almostdiva]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Looks like they won't have to teach "Intelligent Design" in the Dover, Pennsylvania school district after all. http://www.ydr.com/story/doverbiology/51833/

All eight Republican Neanderthals on the school board were defeated by eight Democrats this evening. It was a clean sweep.

I think generally received well by folks in the surrounding areas, too. The lawsuit brought by the parents, protesting that Intelligent Design was in fact teaching religion to their children while they attended school, has wrapped up as well this week. The judge is reviewing the paperwork submitted by both sides and is expected to rule in about a month!

Maybe the folks in Kansas need to take a lesson from the folks in VA and learn how keep themselves in office for more than 4 years, to their reforms don't get thrown out 4 years later when the religous right regains control of the board of ed.

[CSeaSee]

I hope (and think) that the good science teachers in Kansas will all leave in droves now. I don't know ONE self-respecting science teacher who will teach ID. Then, when the all the schools fails the standardized science exams, the schools will eventually get placed under private or federal control...per NCLB! I'll bet the idiot parents who voted for the chairpeople who voted to change the curriculum will just love that.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Have anyone considered that neither Evolution or ID (per se) belong in any substantial form in the science class at all? How about just moving the whole discussion to the theology or philosophy class. Oh, wait...never mind...

-Jason

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

Have anyone considered that neither Evolution or ID (per se) belong in any substantial form in the science class at all?

"The science class?" What do you mean by "the" science class?

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from biology classes?

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from geology classes?

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from astronomy classes?

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from chemistry classes?

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from anatomy classes?

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from pharmacology classes?

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from biochemistry classes?

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from our medical schools?

Are you suggesting that we become a nation of uneducated fools incapable of understanding such basic concepts as the change in genetic characteristics of a populaton over time? If we do that, then how will we develop new vaccines to combat the latest virus mutations? Of course, if evolution doesn't really happen, then there wouldn't be any new viruses, would there? I guess we're worrying about H5N1 for nothing. It will never mutate into a form capable of human to human transmission like the 1918 Spanish flu did. That was another avian flu that managed to make the jump to human to human transmission. It wiped out approximately 50-100 million people.

P.S. -- Since evolution is central to so many different branches of science, it would be impossible to teach anything at all without including instruction in its fundamental principles. Perhaps "Intelligent Design" could be included if the school offers classes in magic?

[schrocat]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

Have anyone considered that neither Evolution or ID (per se) belong in any substantial form in the science class at all? How about just moving the whole discussion to the theology or philosophy class. Oh, wait...never mind...

-Jason

Am I reading that right?

Are you saying...since public funded schools don't discuss theology, then "no evolution for you!"

Fascinating.

The philosophy mention seems off also.
I had a philosophy class available when I was in public HS...

It may still be offered... unless those dang secular scientists drummed up protests and ranted rabidly for their removal.

[Ninong]

Hurricanes are probably out of the question but what about a nice earthquake or a meteor (sic)?

Yep, it's Pat Robertson again on his TV show today warning another community that God will smite them for their wicked ways.

Only this time it's not Orlando, Florida, it's Dover, Pennsylvania! What did the "good citizens" of Dover do that Pat thinks is deserving of fire and brimstone and a meteor (sic) or two? They decided to teach science in their high school science curriculum.

“I’d like to say to the good citizens of Dover. If there is a disaster in your area, don’t turn to God, you just rejected Him from your city. And don’t wonder why He hasn’t helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I’m not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that’s the case, don’t ask for His help because he might not be there.” -- Pat Robertson, Nov. 10, 2005.

I thought he was still busy praying for someone to assassinate Hugo Chavez?




P.S. -- You can express your opinion about Pat's warning here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9995680/

[Ninong]

I just checked Pat's website to see what exactly he wants us to pray for God to do to the Doverites but I couldn't find anything at all, just the same old stuff about praying for more Supreme Court Justices to die or at least get too sick to continue.

Pray that additional vacancies occur within the Supreme Court.

Pray that those who oppose biblical truth would retire from the Supreme Court and be replaced by those who honor God's law.

Pray that any plan of the enemy for the Senate confirmation hearing would be thwarted. Take authority over the schemes of Satan concerning the Supreme Court.

That last prayer point about any plan of "the enemy" for the Senate confirmation hearing is new. He added that one after John Roberts was nominated. He doesn't say anything about Sam Alito's nomination yet, so I guess his webmaster is running behind.

I'm not sure what Pat's getting at with that second prayer point. The one about praying that "those who oppose biblical truth" retire from the Supreme Court. Is he talking about Ruth Bader Ginsburg? What if a justice is a Christian but one who belongs to one of those evil denominations? You know, like Methodists or Episcopalians or, even worse, Catholics!

Does Pat realize that if Alito is confirmed, the Supreme Court will be majority Catholic with a Catholic Chief Justice? I'm sure he probably doesn't mind as long as they all turn out like Antonin "Opus Dei" Scalia.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Originally Posted by Ninong

"The science class?" What do you mean by "the" science class?

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from biology classes?

yes

Originally Posted by Ninong

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from geology classes?

yes

Originally Posted by Ninong

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from astronomy classes?

yes

Originally Posted by Ninong

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from chemistry classes?

yes

Originally Posted by Ninong

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from anatomy classes?

yes

Originally Posted by Ninong

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from pharmacology classes?

I like this one..but...yes

Originally Posted by Ninong

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from biochemistry classes?

yes

Originally Posted by Ninong

Are you suggesting that we remove any discussion of evolution from our medical schools?

yes

Originally Posted by Ninong

Are you suggesting that we become a nation of uneducated fools incapable of understanding such basic concepts as the change in genetic characteristics of a populaton over time? If we do that, then how will we develop new vaccines to combat the latest virus mutations? Of course, if evolution doesn't really happen, then there wouldn't be any new viruses, would there? I guess we're worrying about H5N1 for nothing. It will never mutate into a form capable of human to human transmission like the 1918 Spanish flu did. That was another avian flu that managed to make the jump to human to human transmission. It wiped out approximately 50-100 million people.

I'm wrong. What was I thinking. Wait! I see the flu virus...Oh wait...he has turned into a...a..a...a carrot! Stop! Stop! Nope...too late. He sprouted wings and flew away.

Actually, I think the whole discussion should be moved to a much more appropriate class. How about Creative Writing? No...wait...that sounds too much like "Creation". But here I'm becoming far too Darwinian. As he once said himself "imagination must fill up the very wide blanks".



Blessings,
Jason

PS Please be sure I mean no disrespect.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

But here I'm becoming far too Darwinian. As he once said himself "imagination must fill up the very wide blanks".

No, you're not becoming Darwinian at all. You're just making a complete fool out of yourself talking about flying carrots and taking small snipets of quotations completely out of context. How dishonest is that? Certainly not like anything that Charles Darwin would ever have condoned. He was very humble and conservative in his claims.

"This sketch is most imperfect; but in so short a space I cannot make it better. Your imagination must fill up many wide blanks." Charles Darwin in a letter to Asa Gray, September 5, 1857. Darwin was outlining a brief sketch of his theory in a letter to Asa Gray. Obviously it was "most imperfect" and incomplete in "so short a space," which is why Darwin told him to use his imagination to fill up the many wide blanks.

Here is another quotation from Darwin that seems appropriate for this thread: "...freedom of thought will best be promoted by that gradual enlightening of human understanding which follows the progress of science."

P.S. -- Oh, and by the way, you screwed up the part you quoted out of context. It's "many wide blanks," not "the very wide blanks." You should be more careful in the future when quoting out of context to at least get the part you are quoting correct.

[schrocat]

P.S. -- Oh, and by the way, you screwed up the part you quoted out of context. It's "many wide blanks," not "the very wide blanks." You should be more careful in the future when quoting out of context to at least get the part you are quoting correct.

Blame Michael Denton.
He made up the quote...I'm sure he had his reasons.

[Ninong]

Michael Denton makes up a lot of crap but the IDiots love him. I guess that's why they say that ignorance is bliss. Bible-thumping and stupidity have been close companions since the Dark Ages. It's a wonder more of them don't still believe the earth is flat and the center of the universe.

P.S. --

Schrocat,

OK, I finally found Michael Denton's out-of-context screwed up quotation of Darwin. Note that he got the date of the letter wrong, too. In that book, he misquoted a lot of people, he used references that were 150 years old to support some of his crap and, in general, displayed a remarkable lack of understanding of evolution for a molecular biologist. Since that book was published 19 years ago, there have been a lot of new developments in molecular biology that make Denton's arguments even more quaint and absurd than they were when he originally proposed them.

In a personal letter to Asa Gray (1858) Darwin admitted that
'Imagination must fill up the very wide blanks.'
Michael Denton - Evolution: A Theory in Crisis - p.117

[schrocat]

Originally Posted by Ninong

OK, I finally found Michael Denton's out-of-context screwed up quotation of Darwin. Note that he got the date of the letter wrong, too. In that book, he misquoted a lot of people, he used references that were 150 years old to support some of his crap and, in general, displayed a remarkable lack of understanding of evolution.

In a personal letter to Asa Gray (1858) Darwin admitted that
'Imagination must fill up the very wide blanks.'
Michael Denton - Evolution: A Theory in Crisis - p.117

It's the new thing.

Twisting intellegence to support the war on Science. :slap:

[Fish R.Ph.]

Originally Posted by Ninong

No, you're not becoming Darwinian at all. You're just making a complete fool out of yourself talking about flying carrots and taking small snipets of quotations completely out of context. How dishonest is that? Certainly not like anything that Charles Darwin would ever have condoned. He was very humble and conservative in his claims.

"This sketch is most imperfect; but in so short a space I cannot make it better. Your imagination must fill up many wide blanks." Charles Darwin in a letter to Asa Gray, September 5, 1857. Darwin was outlining a brief sketch of his theory in a letter to Asa Gray. Obviously it was "most imperfect" and incomplete in "so short a space," which is why Darwin told him to use his imagination to fill up the many wide blanks.

Here is another quotation from Darwin that seems appropriate for this thread: "...freedom of thought will best be promoted by that gradual enlightening of human understanding which follows the progress of science."

P.S. -- Oh, and by the way, you screwed up the part you quoted out of context. It's "many wide blanks," not "the very wide blanks." You should be more careful in the future when quoting out of context to at least get the part you are quoting correct.

Apparently that quote has experienced a bit of microevolution itself! Of course, the abuse of it in MY context was just to point out Darwin's appreciation for the imagination, and no more.

But I am a Creationist. So stop trying to confuse me with the facts!!!

By the way, would the Chair please inform my friend that the ad hominem style of discussion is..well...hurting my feelings .

AND, I do not believe the carrot flew. No. Definitely not. When it sprouted wings it most certainly became a different species. But alas, it has now turned into a dolphin. What do they eat by the way? Ahhhh, the wonders of macroevolution.

Anyway, I shall not bother you any longer. I would however like to buy you lunch some day! I owe much of 'whatever' aquarium knowledge I have accumulated recently to your posts on this very fine site.

Now I must return to my Bible study.

Cordially and gratefully,

Jason

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

Apparently that quote has experienced a bit of microevolution itself! Of course, the abuse of it in MY context was just to point out Darwin's appreciation for the imagination, and no more.

When Einstein said, "Imagination is more important than knowledge," he didn't mean that we should disregard knowledge altogether. Which is exactly what Creationists and Intelligent Design proponents would have us do.

But I am a Creationist. So stop trying to confuse me with the facts!!!

The confusion is caused by all the snake oil salesmen passing themselves off as "scientists" so that they can write books on "creation science" and "intelligent design." Most of these guys got their "doctorates" at diploma mills or theological colleges where they are on the faculty. Their books are filled with errors of both fact and logic but their writings appeal to people who have already made up their minds about the end result and are just looking for "scientific" justification for their religious convictions.

By the way, would the Chair please inform my friend that the ad hominem style of discussion is..well...hurting my feelings .

My style is aggressive but not necessarily ad hominem. Anyone who makes the outrageous statements you made in this thread can expect a certain amount of distain, not for you personally but for what you represent and the danger such ignorance poses to our society. And it is a danger because it is inflicted on the innocent children who are taught this crap at home and in private "academies."

AND, I do not believe the carrot flew. No. Definitely not. When it sprouted wings it most certainly became a different species. But alas, it has now turned into a dolphin. What do they eat by the way? Ahhhh, the wonders of macroevolution.

More idiotic babble that we should excuse because it is no doubt your deeply held religious conviction. This, by the way, does not constitute an ad hominem attack, it is an attack against the idea that just because one claims something is a religious conviction we should somehow treat it differently than we would other nonsense. I don't look at it that way. I am more than happy to engage in reasoned, rational discourse involving convictions of any sort, deeply held or not, but I reserve the right to tell it like I see it.

Anyway, I shall not bother you any longer. I would however like to buy you lunch some day! I owe much of 'whatever' aquarium knowledge I have accumulated recently to your posts on this very fine site.

Now I must return to my Bible study.

It's not a bother at all. On the contrary, I would be more than happy to discuss creation according to the Book of Genesis or any of the various creation "science" ideas with you right here in this thread. Surely you have the conviction of your beliefs and would welcome the opportunity to explain them to others? I would be interested in learning exactly which passages in the Bible you are still able to accept in a strictly literal fashion and which you have finally decided can no longer be taken literally. Surely there has been some evolution in the interpretation of the Bible over the past few hundred years or we would all still believe the sun orbits the earth.

I would love to have a creationist explain why he believes that the earth is no more than 6500 years old. Or why he thinks that Noah lived to be more than 900 years old. Or perhaps someone could explain the idea that it didn't rain on earth until the flood. Or, speaking of the flood, perhaps someone would be willing to explain the 40 days and 40 nights part and exactly how much freshwater (rainwater) it would take to cover the entire earth to the tops of every mountain. And maybe you would be so kind as to tell us which animals Noah saved in his ark and exactly how he managed to get them all into such a tiny vessel. What happened to all the other millions of species that were not rescued? And, as a reefkeeper, surely you must wonder how all those fish and invertebrates dealt with the osmotic shock of 9,000 meters of rainwater coming down on them in only 40 days. That works out to about 369 inches of rain per hour, 24 hours per day for 40 days and 40 nights.

Inquiring minds would love to know how creationists explain these things when they're talking to anyone beyond the third grade. I think it was around the third grade that I figured out that Santa Claus couldn't possibly visit a billion houses in a single night.