[Ninong]

...And now I find that Pastor Ted has already confessed to being a naughty boy and is ready to enter one of those phony ex-gay movement joints to be "healed." That didn't take long, did it?

Maybe I missed it, but I don't believe vehemently anti-gay Pastor Ted has yet retracted his previous statement that he did not have sexual relations with that rent-a-stud. And he has yet to admit that he is gay. Reminds me of all the vehemently anti-gay Republican Congressmen who are gay themselves.

hy·poc·ri·sy noun Definition: 1. feigned high principles: the false claim to or pretense of having admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings
It would be sheer hypocrisy for them to turn around and do what they criticize in others.

They will now all pray that Pastor Ted will suddenly become straight again. Yeah, right!

Hey, maybe we should ask all these wingnut preacher guys who are pushing all the anti-gay marriage measures to swear on a stack of bibles that they are not themselves engaging in gay sex, with or without crystal meth enhancement. We could call it the Hypocritic Oath.

They are all asking themselves how something like this could have happened. My favorite explanation by far is provided by another right-wing fundamentalist Christian pastor by the name of Mark Driscoll. It's difficult to summarize anything as absurd as what this moron is proposing but here goes:

The reason Pastor Ted was led astray by the "homosexual prostitute" was because his wife let herself go and she didn't make herself available to him.



I kid you not! I'll link the full thing later but the thrust of his warning is that too many pastors' wives are fat slobs who don't keep themselves in shape and don't pay enough attention to submitting themselves to their husband's needs.

That's right, boys and girls, the fundies believe that if your wife gains a little weight, it will make you want to do you-know-what with guys!!! Well, what can I say? I guess if you can believe that the world was created in six days 6,000 years ago, you can believe just about anything.

Here's the link to Pastor Mark Driscoll's blog. Read it for yourself to get a better understanding of just how dumb these guys really are.

Here's the money shot:

"A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either."




P.S. -- I wonder if Pastor Mark is speaking from personal experience?

[Ninong]

Let me see if I can translate it into standard English. It's in fundyspeak, so it may be a little tricky for some folks to understand.

First off, he didn't show up in person. He had the other preacher man, Ross Parsley, read his "message" to the congregation for him.


Ross Parsley, like Ted Haggard, is a graduate of Oral Roberts University

(P.S. -- Dept. of Corrections: Ross Parsley is the guy who replaced Ted Haggard as head pastor of the New Life Church but he didn't read the "message" from Haggard to the congregation Sunday. Larry Stockstill of Baton Rouge, one of the church's four "overseers" read the message. Hey, didn't President Lincoln outlaw overseers?)

Pastor Ted admitted he is gay and has been all of his adult life but since he doesn't understand the concept of sexual orientation, he thinks he's possessed by demons. No doubt he will now go into rehab to have his demons driven out.

If you read between the lines, he admitted that he married his wife without telling her about his "demon problem."

He admitted he's a pathological liar -- and a lousy liar at that. His performance on TV was pathetic.

Here is the key sentence in the original fundyspeak: "There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life."

What's repulsive and dark is his hypocrisy, his lying, his intolerant ignorance, his deception of his wife, his entire stupid life devoted to spreading hate and ignorance.

Larry Stockstill of Baton Rouge, La. -- who heads the congregation considered to be New Life's mother church -- told reporters after the service that Haggard is "not in touch with truth and reality."

[sihaya]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I don't know why USA Today thinks this is a news item but it appears that they're surprised that the Bush Administration is wasting millions of dollars in an attempt to impose abstinence on anyone under the age of 29.

This is a joke, right? 29?! Who waits till 29?! I mean, the abstinence until marraige thing I get (sorta--I don't agree, but I can make sense of it at least). But 29? wow

[Ninong]

Sara,

No, it's not a joke. In fact, we discussed this a few months ago in another thread. At that time I pointed out that it was unfair to people like Mary Cheney, Ken Mehlman, Josh Bolten, Condi Rice, etc., who would be expected to remain celebate their entire lives. That's because the policy as originally written said that sexual intercourse should not happen until marriage.

The only thing new is that the Bush Administration has now clarified their policy by saying that no one under the age of 29 should engage in sexual intercourse unless they are married.

Don't forget, all of this stuff is aimed at the suckers in "the base" -- the Christian evangelicals who think that just because they were largely responsible for Bush being in the White House that they are somehow entitled to dictate policy. The Administration has to let them think that their views are being heard.

Don't think for one minute that George W. Bush -- or his two daughters -- believe any of that crap.

[Ninong]

In New Life Church's podcast of the October 29, 2006 sermon, Pastor Ted has this to say:

"Father, give us grace and mercy. Father, help us this next week and a half as we go into national elections, and Lord we pray for our country.

"Father, we pray that lies would be exposed. We pray that deception would be exposed.

"Father, we pray that wisdom would come upon our electorate and that they would think with clarity and with decisiveness, and Lord, that we would be a model for the whole world to see how people can disagree passionately but the rule of law … will prevail."

[Ninong]

Signorile's interview of gay hooker Mike Jones is being broadcast right now on Sirius Satellite radio.

Excerpts:

Michelangelo Signorile: I'm here with Michael Jones, the man who of course is at the center of enormous controversy. We're in New York City, at the Waldorf-Astoria. He came to New York do the Today show.

What was that like flying in just to do the Today show about all of this, and then flying out?

Michael Jones: Well, in the last three days I've had three hours of sleep, so I'm exhausted. The whole process has been highly educational for me, but it's grueling.

MS: Tell me a bit about how you first met Ted Haggard.

MJ: It was approximately three years ago. Got a call from a gentleman who said his name was Art. He wanted to see if we could hook up. At the time I was advertising as an escort in gay publications. I only advertised in gay publications. So if someone was looking for me, they were looking in a gay publication. He said he was from Kansas City and he wanted to hook up. We hooked up at my place. Always at my place. I had never been to a hotel with him.

MS: Did he use the term "hook up?" I mean, what did he actually say he wanted to do?

MJ: He said he wanted an appointment with me. He came to my apartment. And the clothes came right off. The first time it was pretty much mutual masturbation, then in time oral sex. He was really pretty vanilla. Only once in three years did we try anal sex.

MS: Was he a top or bottom? What was he interested in?

MJ: When I was on the radio show in Denver, the question was asked: Did you practice safe sex? I said, 'We used a condom once." The talk show host goes, "You mean he wore the condom once?" I said, "Uh, no, I did."

MS: What about with oral sex. Was he the passive partner or the active partner?

MJ: You know, it kind of went back and forth --- and I can't say he was very good at it.

MS: Did he seem like he'd done this before?

MJ: I don't know. He didn't appear nervous to me. He was very quiet. Didn't talk much. Liked the lights low. He never was with me for more than an hour. Sometimes it was just 15 or 20 minutes.

MS: Did he want companionship or was it all sex?

MJ: It was pretty much in and out. Sex, no speaking. Do the thing, and then he left. I could see the street from where I live and I could see he would park a block away and when he would call me he would block the calls, at least in that in the first year. After that first year he started calling me from pay phones and I noticed the area code was Colorado Springs.

***

MS: And you'd had people who came from Colorado Springs, which is of course the center of evangelical movement, who were involved with the churches?

MJ: I can't tell you how many ministers, pastors, priests I've had. It didn't bother me, nothing surprised me. And when I saw that his calls were coming from Colorado Springs I figured he was involved with the church. But I was shocked that this guy, how huge he was, and taking such a risk.

MS: You felt that you had to do something before November 7th, if it was going to impact Amendment 43 and the elections.

MJ: And I don't know if it's going to change votes at all. I don't know what the outcome will be, it coming out before the election but I had to point out the hypocrisy, that here is a gentleman enjoying all the benefits of marriage, all the rights and doesn't want two other people of the same sex who love each other to have those same rights and yet he can cheat on his wife.

MS: How did you go about reaching out to media?

MJ: Two months before it actually came out, I went to this reporter in Denver [at the NBC affiliate, Channel 9] who I respected, an investigative reporter who was well known. I went to her and immediately the station congregated around me. They go, "This is huge, we want this story!" But they go, "We need just a little bit more proof." They actually wanted to see film of him and me together somehow. They wanted some video of some type. And I was prepared to do that. I had video cameras lined up. I was going to hide them in my apartment. But Ted wasn't calling me after that last get together in August. My gut feeling was, with the Foley thing happening, and the election happening, he wanted to lay low.

MS: Did he always have an orgasm when he was with you?

MJ: Yes.

MS: And I guess if you were going to pursue this, to get more evidence, you were going to collect some of that DNA evidence. Was that part of the plan?

MJ: Boy, you hit it right on the head.

MS: But he all of a sudden wasn't calling you, out of the blue? You would meet once per month, but how often did he call?

MJ: Once per month, when he wanted to meet.

MS: So August was the last time he called. You would of course need the opportunity in September or October to film him and have more evidence before the election.

MJ: Right, and it wasn't happening. So I was listening to Peter Boyles, our big talk show host in Denver. And the subject was gay marriage. And I was hearing all the right wingers calling in and I was getting pissed. I knew I was sitting on this story - it was eating at me. I sent Peter an email and said, if you want a big story I have a big story for you. Well, two days later, they said, "Can you be on the radio at 6 a.m. tomorrow?"

I didn't reveal Ted Haggard's name. I wasn't ready to reveal the name. All the callers were calling in and saying I just wanted publicity. Well, when channel 9 heard me on the radio, they wanted the story so bad, they went down to Colorado Springs and they confronted Haggard, and then ran the story. That's how it really broke.

MS: So they really are the ones who outed him, after you spoke on the radio about "a preacher."

MJ: That's right.

***
MS: Tell me about this: You're having sexual encounters with him once a month. After about a year he just asks you about crystal meth?

MJ: He just goes, "Hey Mike, I have a question. What do you know about crystal meth?" I was a little bit surprised. I said, "I don't care for it. I've tried it but I don't care for it. But I have friends who do it and they think it enhances their sexual pleasure." He goes, "Do you think you can get me some?" I told him I'll see what I can do.

MS: And you hooked him up with somebody who could get him this drug. Then what? He would do it in your presence when he had sex with you?

MJ: Yes, he agreed it enhanced his pleasure and said that he used it when he had sex with his wife too.

MS: What did he get like after he took the crystal? How did it impact him?

MJ: I can't get into his mind or his body. He didn't act any differently. He seemed to be enjoying it. Definitely had a smile on his face.

MS: He said he was taking this when he had sex with his wife. Did he indicate he had trouble having sex with his wife? Did it allow him to have heterosexual sex more easily? Is he gay, bisexual, any ideas on that?

MJ: I really don't know. I really think he is a gay man. When you're in that business, you've got to put up a good front. I think he has enormously strong homosexual tendencies but he just told me the drug enhanced his pleasure with his wife. I don't know if he even really was having sex with his wife, or just said that. I think part of it too is that he was a very busy man, traveling all over the country and the world. I think he enjoyed the drug too because it kept him going.


***
MS: You spoke about a fantasy he told you, his sexual fantasy. Tell me about that?

MJ: This was the only time he ever spoke about something sexual other than being with me. He goes, "Mike do you know any young college guys" I said, "Well, I know a few, why? "He said, "I would love to get about 4 to 6 young college guys, about 18 to 22, I'd love to have group sex with them.' I said, "Let me check around and see what I can do and see if I can organize that for you." I never pursued it.

MS: What have you been hearing from people in response to what you've done?

MJ: Well, I've had hundreds and hundreds of phone calls coming in. Deluged, saying, "Thank you Mike. God you got balls!" A lot of thank yous. I have had one threatening phone call - "You're going to be so sorry for what you did. You're going to get it."

MS: Some people see you as a hero, others say, "He's not a hero, he's a prostitute." What's your reaction?

MJ: I don't feel like a hero. I wasn't trying to be a hero. I'm at the age of 49. I saw a lot of my friends going through hell in years past, where one of the partners would die and the other family would come in and say get out of the way, and just rape the house, and there was a lot of crying. I felt like this was a responsibility to my fellow gay brothers to do this. I've had some people say "You're an immoral *****, *****, ***." But I've been called all those names all my life. So it's not new. But I will tell you, when it finally broke, when he resigned, I have to be honest with you, I just broke down. I had so much emotion for so long.

MS: Do you feel other hustlers, like those in Washington DC, whose clients have been rightwing antigay politicians, should look to you like a role model and do the same thing?

MJ: I don't think I should be a role model, but if I saw some politician out there bashing gays, yes, I think they should say something. But I would say, after going through this experience, I would say to them, just make sure you are able to prove it! {laughs]

[Ninong]

Evidently Daddy Dobson and a couple of his preacher pals have undertaken to drive out the demons that possess Pastor Ted. Pastor Ted and his entire family have left Colorado Springs for a secure undisclosed location where they will undergo family reprogramming.

If you want to know what a lunatic this guy Ted Haggard is, just read this Harper's interview that was originally published in May 2005.

He's all in favor of ferocious, preemptive war because the Bible is full of blood. There's lots of blood in the Bible. And he sees this as a conflict between evangelism and Islam. The Catholics are not a part of this struggle because they're all living in the past and they don't produce any intelligent children like the Protestants. It's the Protestant children that are descendants of the Puritan settlers that make this country great, except for the recent problem with Mexicans coming across the border. That's because Mexicans are not likely to go to college and learn anything.

He even tells us how he chose the spot to build his church. He got out of his car and got down on the ground and sniffed the dirt. That's when God told him that that was the spot where he should build his church. Oh, and he was once attacked by a woman weilding a 5" knife who was sent by the devil to destroy him but he fought her off. And yes, it's true that he once resurrected a dead man.

The forces of evil are all around us. He calls them "Control." He's constantly waging the war against "Control." One of the ways he does this is to fill a 5-gal spray can with cooking oil (shades of John Ashcroft) and spray certain intersections where "Control" is present. But first he blesses the cooking oil. He also sprays outside gay bars and other dens of inequity. He stands outside gay bars and hands out flyers inviting the patrons to come join his church to be saved.

He likes to send out prayer teams to pray in front of certain houses that he thinks need praying. He's proud to report that ten of fifteen houses they targeted for regular prayer vigils were put on the market and sold. The families moved away. Praise God.

Oh, and he doesn't like scandals or secrets. That's in his book on dog training.

[Ninong]

Well, Daddy Dobson now says that he doesn't have the time to devote to the saving of Pastor Ted. Evidently this is a long drawn out process that could take three to five years. So if Pastor Ted is going to be born again, again, someone else will have to be the midwife.

Meanwhile, Rev. Lou "Lucky Louie" Sheldon of the Christian Values Coalition has just admitted that he and "a lot" of others knew about Haggard's homosexuality "for awhile ... but we weren't sure just how to deal with it." Did Daddy Dobson know? After all, he was one of Pastor Ted's closest friends and spiritual advisors. Probably!

If that's the case, why didn't they "lay on the hands" and "drive out the demons" before this thing blew up in their faces to make them look like a bunch of hypocrites? OK, so they would still have looked like a bunch of hypocrites but without as much publicity.

[Ninong]

Looks like Daddy Dobson and his "restoration" crew have their work cut out for them.

[Ninong]

Returning briefly to the original topic of this thread, the Bush Administration has appointed Dr. Eric Keroack as the new chief of family-planning programs at the Department of Health and Human Services. He will oversee $283 million in family-planning grants that, according to HHS, are "designed to provide access to contraceptive supplies and information to all who want and need them with priority given to low-income persons."

Dr. Keroack is presently medical director for a Christian pregnancy-counseling organization that regards the distribution of contraceptives as "demeaning to women."

So, just don't do it and you won't need any of those demeaning contraceptives!

P.S. -- Dr. Keroack has consistently opposed contraception, in sometimes what many would consider extremist forms. Planned Parenthood reports that, as a member of the Medical Advisory Council for the Abstinence Clearing House and Federal Expert Panel, Keroack defined the guidelines for grants from the Community-Based Abstinence Education Program. His requirements included that there be no discussion of contraception, or even sexually transmitted infections.

[mistermikev]

Einstein was quite religous. Remember not all people who are religous are hypocrates. The bible says "no man walked the earth without sin but jesus". Meaning: even preachers are men. Saying gay sex is a sin doesn't mean all gays are condemned. Getting fat is a sin. "Keep thy temple clean". I am not a fundie, haven't been to church in years, just don't believe that these are fair representations of the entire christian community. There is something quite good about man searching for something beyond his own existence. When you say "no wonder they believe the earth was created in 6 days", it suggests that one would have to be stupid to believe that... what if it is a metaphor that is misinterpreted by many? Politics drive me madd... I am not at all surprised that politicians and religous figures are corrupt. After all, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

[Ninong]

Hi mistermikev,

Originally Posted by mistermikev

Einstein was quite religous.

I agree. Here are a few of my favorite Einstein quotes:

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

"Why do you write to me 'God should punish the English'? I have no close connection to either one or the other. I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only his nonexistence could excuse Him."

"I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.... This is a somewhat new kind of religion."

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."

Remember not all people who are religous are hypocrates.

Of course not, but the hypocrites get more publicity, and deservedly so.

The bible says "no man walked the earth without sin but jesus". Meaning: even preachers are men. Saying gay sex is a sin doesn't mean all gays are condemned.

Those who believe that something that is a normal variant of human sexuality is somehow sinful are entitled to their own beliefs as long as they don't try to force their ignorance on others.

I am not a fundie, haven't been to church in years, just don't believe that these are fair representations of the entire christian community.

You're right. Not all Republican politicans are hypocrites and not all Christian fundamentalists are hypocrites, but the ones who are are more newsworthy mainly because of their hypocrisy.

When you say "no wonder they believe the earth was created in 6 days", it suggests that one would have to be stupid to believe that... what if it is a metaphor that is misinterpreted by many?

That's not a Christian fundamentalist view of the Bible. Most Christian fundamentalists believe in biblical inerrancy and in the literal interpretation of the Book of Genesis. Just ask them. In spite of their proclaimed belief in biblical inerrancy, they seem to have no qualms about choosing which passages to believe in and which ones to ignore.

[mistermikev]

I once had a similar discussion with one of my computer science professors. Einstein also wrote "I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are details." He wrote "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)"

[mistermikev]

PS that bit about the hypocrites being more newsworthy - LOL

[mistermikev]

You say "just ask them", what, the entire population of christian fundamentalists? Let me just say, I voted for John Kerry (how do you spell it?). Stood in line for 3+ hours and missed class that day. I think church and state should be seperate... i.e. no marriage in goverment. But I also believe that there is truth in all religion - from the koran to the book of mormons. Wether they were written as a means to control mass populations or by devine intervention - there are some good life lessons in there.

[mistermikev]

as far as inerrancy... the entire bible is a string of contridictions... that's the point. those that follow to the letter are so religous they are anti religous. everything in moderation... even religion
if man was created in gods image and man makes mistakes... then when god says he doesn't make mistakes it is likely he has made a mistake!

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by mistermikev

You say "just ask them", what, the entire population of christian fundamentalists?

When I speak of "Christian fundamentalists," I'm usually referring to Christians who believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible. Some of the mainline Protestant denominations are not nearly as fundamentalist as others.

Baptist leaders like the Rev. Pat Robertson and the Rev. Jerry Falwell are definitely Christian fundamentalists and both profess a belief in biblical inerrancy and that the Bible must be taken literally as the word of God.

Most of the 30 million people who are members of the 45,000 churches that belong to the National Association of Evangelicals, until recently led by Rev. Ted Haggard, probably consider themselves fundamentalists even though not all of them may believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.

In many Christian denominations, the interpretation of the Bible has evolved over the centuries to adapt to contemporary knowledge.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by mistermikev

as far as inerrancy... the entire bible is a string of contridictions...

Not according to someone like Rev. Jerry Falwell, who believes in biblical inerrancy. There are no contradictions in the Bible, just people reading it who don't understand what they are reading.

if man was created in gods image and man makes mistakes... then when god says he doesn't make mistakes it is likely he has made a mistake!

Of course God makes mistakes. He says so plain as day right there in the very first book of the Bible, the book of Genesis.

That's why the flood was necessary. It was because God screwed up and was sorry for his mistake and wanted to fix things:

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth...And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them” (Genesis 6:5-7).

And was God pleased with the flood? Not exactly. After violently slaughtering everyone, God suddenly realized that mankind is inherently evil, prompting God to promise never to violently slaughter everyone and everything again:

“And the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done”(Genesis 8:21).

So God admitted that he had screwed up again and promised not to repeat this particular mistake. God realized that he had created man with a heart that is evil from his youth. I have no idea why God didn't know this beforehand, do you? Maybe Rev. Jerry Falwell can explain why God didn't know this stuff?

[mistermikev]

If there is one thing I think we can agree on... the world is full of bad examples.
"We have a duty to kill them people and uphold the good name of our bible"...
meanwhile it says thou shalt not kill on page one.
At the same time my fav quote is "hate the sin not the man", better yet don't hate anything, just strongly dislike it.

[Ninong]

The government is not doing enough to oversee federally funded abstinence-until-marriage programs to prevent them from distributing inaccurate information, according to a new report by the Government Accountability Office.

The informational materials distributed by government-funded abstinence programs are not reviewed for scientific accuracy, according to the report, nor are the abstinence programs required to provide any assurance that their materials are accurate. In some instances, according to the report, those materials are providing inaccurate claims about contraception and sexually transmitted diseases.

For example, one state official told the GAO that an abstinence program distributed pamphlets that suggested that the HIV virus can pass through condoms because latex is porous, according to the report.

Family planning advocates say that with or without oversight abstinence-until-marriage groups should not be federally funded because they place ideology ahead of science.

"It shouldn't be the government's business to fund this sort of thing," according to Michael McGee, Vice President for Education at Planned Parenthood. "Anybody who is interested in the health and well-being of teenagers wants them to get all of the accurate information they need to become sexually sufficient adults."

The Department of Health & Human Services has increased funding for abstinence-until-marriage programs from about $73 million in 2001 to about $158 million last year.

[...]

The Bush administration is already drawing fire this week from family planning advocates for the controversial appointment of Dr. Eric Keroack to advise HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt on family planning programs. Keroack previously worked at a Christian pregnancy-counseling clinic that regards birth control as "demeaning to women."

You can read the rest here.

Well, what can I say? Does anyone think that the Bush Administration really cares whether the information that is being given to America's teenagers is scientifically accurate or not? Why should we force our children to learn filthy fact-based science when everything they need to know is contained in Genesis and Leviticus?

Do they still tell them that they'll go blind? I wouldn't doubt it.