[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Ninong

An irrational belief in an afterlife made 9/11 possible, just as it continues to fuel the suicide bombers in the Middle East.

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

Thats as silly as saying airplanes made 9/11 possible.

Originally Posted by Ninong

Do you actually think it's silly? You don't think that a belief in an afterlife is fundamental to persuading someone to turn himself into a human bomb?

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

No, hilarious is probably closer, but I was trying to be polite.

Belief in the afterlife played a role...so did the plane, and many other things.

Originally Posted by Ninong

Flying lessons wouldn't turn me into a suicide pilot.

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

Um, Nor me. Hmmm.

My point exactly!

Afterlife-obsessed, suicide-embracing jihadists actually do believe that they are carrying out God's will in attacking the infidels and that martyrdom equals instant sainthood, along with the exclusive attention of 72 beautiful virgins.

Have you noticed how happy they appear in their "last will" videos? Have you noticed how proud the mothers are when they are informed that their sons have now achieved sainthood for themselves and honor and glory for their families? They march at the head of the parade through the village holding aloft a huge photo of their family's martyr as proof of the intensity of their religious fervor.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Afterlife-obsessed, suicide-embracing jihadists actually do believe that they are carrying out God's will in attacking the infidels.

Yep, and there's the rub. Their view of the afterlife is wrong...virgins and all

Jesus was afterlife-obsessed [Matthew 6:19-20, John 18:36] ...He didn't fly a plane into any towers.

Nor would you...nor would I.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

Nor would you...nor would I.

I wouldn't but would you? What if you were convinced that this is something God wanted you to do and that doing so would guarantee instant sainthood?

Are you saying that you would disobey a direct order from God? Because that is exactly what these guys believe. They believe they are doing God's will.

When their religious leaders call for somebody's assassination in a fatwa, they take it seriously. Just ask Sir Salman Rushdie.

When U.S. religious leaders, such as Southern Baptist pastor Pat Robertson, call for the assassination of foreign leaders, everybody just ignores him as the whackjob that he really is. But what if Pat Robertson could convince his followers that if they obeyed his order to kill somebody they would be given instant access to heaven and the exclusive use of 72 beautiful virgins?

It's all a matter of belief. Their belief may be stronger? I believe Jesus addressed this in Matthew 16:8 "O ye of little faith." Maybe the Christians lack faith? How else to explain their rejection of Pat Roberston's repeated fatwas over the years?

On Aug. 22, 2005, Pat Robertson said on national television, "I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he (Hugo Chavez) thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war, and I don't think any oil shipments will stop."

That's a favorite theme of Rev. Robertson's, calls for the assassination of people he finds troublesome.

On Aug. 9, 1999, Pat Robertson said on national television, "I know it sounds somewhat Machiavellian and evil, to think that you could send a squad in to take out somebody like Osama bin Laden, or to take out the head of North Korea, but isn't it better to do something like that, to take out Milosevic, to take out Saddam Hussein, rather than to spend billions of dollars on a war that harms innocent civilians and destroys the infrastructure of a country?"

Obviously a belief that you should smite your enemies is common to both Christianity and Islam. It's all a matter of intensity of belief. Do you insanely believe everything in the Old Testament or do you ignore the passages that would land you in prison for life or worse?

[Fish R.Ph.]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I wouldn't but would you?

More silliness.

instant sainthood?

Already am, by grace, as is every believer [Romans 1:7]. You can be too my friend!

When U.S. religious leaders, such as Southern Baptist pastor Pat Robertson...

May be a religious leader...but the Bible has plenty to say about his ministry, and most of it makes the stuff you have said look almost sympathetic

Their belief may be stronger? I believe Jesus addressed this in Matthew 16:8 "O ye of little faith."

Don't think so, the context of this passage pertains to the leaven of the Pharisees - an allusion to the dangers of hypocrisy. There is certainly enough of that to go around.

Obviously a belief that you should smite your enemies is common to both Christianity and Islam.

"But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also" Matt 5:30

"If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat" Proverbs 25:21

"But you shall love your neighbor as yourself" Leviticus 19:18

Um, okay.

Do you insanely believe everything in the Old Testament or do you ignore the passages that would land you in prison for life or worse?

I didn't use to. And I don't blame you for your perspective, as there has always been no shortage of those who shamelessly peddle God's Word to their own profit right from the start [ie 2 Corinthians 2:17]. Those who wish to define Chrisitianity by its most outspoken and often outlandish representatives will find no shortage of material for mocking. I must admit, in moderation....it can be quite fun! Jesus mocked the bogus religious charlatan's in His day calling them "whitewashed tombs". Now, that's funny!

[Ninong]

The Bible is full of contradictions. That's why it's so easy to find a passage to support whatever point you wish to make, especially if it involves smiting non-believers. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are loaded with examples of the wrath of God.

Are you saying that the really stupid passages are "no longer operative," as Richard Nixon's White House press secretary used to say?

[Ninong]

The Bible may have "plenty to say about (Pat Robertson's) ministry" but he has millions of followers, as did Jerry Falwell, another "agent of intolerance," to use the phrase once employed by John McCain.

Robertson has The 700 Club and the CBN network and he has founded Regent University. Falwell founded Liberty University. Obviously there are millions of people who consider themselves Christians who also admire and respect those two guys. OK, one of them is now dearly departed, but both of them have/had a lot of flock.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Originally Posted by Ninong

The Bible is full of contradictions.

I would say, "name one", but we both no anyone can Google Bible contradictions and find however many they want to satisfy their mind. I've devoted the past 20 years (nearly) to studying and teaching the Bible, I don't fly planes into towers, don't hand out poisoned cool aid to followers, and don't ask for 50 million dollars to build an 800 gallon fish tank that God said I should have (unless of course you want to donate...I do have a paypal account )

I don't think the Bible has a single, true contradiction, though it is enormously misunderstood. As I tell my classes frequently: "A text without a context is a pretext" and the problem is that there are few willing to devote the time to understanding the Bible in its own context and history. Hey...after 20 years I still consider myself a newbie, and stand upon the shoulders of the thousands of giants before me. I believe the Bible because it simply presents the best analysis of the human condition found anywhere in the world. What I believe doesn't make me better than anyone else. In fact, it probably means I'm worse. "Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me...".

But seriously, if someone has a sincere problem with a statement in the Bible, a contradiction that they just can't understand...I'm happy to help if I can. Again, after many years of study, I do not think there is 1 legitimate contradiction anywhere in the whole Bible. It is God breathed. And God ain't got no bad breath.

[Ninong]

I should have followed Darwin's advice and declined to dispute religion with the faithful. I should have known better than to think that I could somehow convince you that a belief in an afterlife was the most essential requirement for turning someone into a suicide bomber. If I can't convince you of that, how am I going to talk you out of believing the fairy tales in Genesis?

Do you believe the universe is 6,000 years old or does your religious belief system permit you to make adjustments where necessary to bring the Bible into compliance with reality?

[Fish R.Ph.]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I should have known better than to think that I could somehow convince you that a belief in an afterlife was the most essential requirement for turning someone into a suicide bomber.

A false, silly, man-centered, lust driven view of the afterlife may turn someone into a suicide bomber. Wrong thoughts...bad deeds. Of course, the Bible could have told you that. Jesus said "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murder..." [Matt 15:19].

Do you believe the universe is 6,000 years old or does your religious belief system permit you to make adjustments where necessary to bring the Bible into compliance with reality?

Got a verse for me?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Do you believe the universe is 6,000 years old or does your religious belief system permit you to make adjustments where necessary to bring the Bible into compliance with reality?

Originally Posted by Fish R.Ph.

Got a verse for me?

Why can't you answer the question? Are you being deliberately obtuse of is this something you would rather not discuss?

Do you believe in creation according to the Book of Genesis or not? And you know exactly what I'm talking about when I asked you about the age of the Earth. And you know exactly how it's calculated by those who claim to believe in literal word and exactly what they base their calculations on.

So why are you playing games instead of simply answering the question?

[Fish R.Ph.]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Do you believe in creation according to the Book of Genesis or not?

Yes

[Ninong]

Good grief!

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Speaking of "the end of faith"...

Remember when Oral Roberts said that if his flock didn't fork over $8 million for a new school pronto, God was going to call him home? And that was the beginning of Oral Roberts University.

This might be the end:

Among dozens of allegations of wrongdoing at the school that is now run by Oral's son, Richard Roberts, are the following:

• A longtime maintenance employee was fired so that an underage male friend of Mrs. Roberts could have his position.

• Mrs. Roberts — who is a member of the board of regents and is referred to as ORU's "first lady" on the university's Web site — frequently had cell-phone bills of more than $800 per month, with hundreds of text messages sent between 1 a.m. to 3 a.m. to "underage males who had been provided phones at university expense."

• The university jet was used to take one daughter and several friends on a senior trip to Orlando, Fla., and the Bahamas. The $29,411 trip was billed to the ministry as an "evangelistic function of the president."

• Mrs. Roberts spent more than $39,000 at one Chico's clothing store alone in less than a year, and had other accounts in Texas and California. She also repeatedly said, "As long as I wear it once on TV, we can charge it off." The document cites inconsistencies in clothing purchases and actual usage on TV.

• Mrs. Roberts was given a white Lexus SUV and a red Mercedes convertible by ministry donors.

• University and ministry employees are regularly summoned to the Roberts' home to do the daughters' homework.

• The university and ministry maintain a stable of horses for exclusive use by the Roberts' children.

• The Roberts' home has been remodeled 11 times in the past 14 years.

Tim Brooker, one of the professors who sued, said he fears for the university's survival if certain changes aren't made. "All over that campus, there are signs up that say, `And God said, build me a university, build it on my authority, and build it on the Holy Spirit,'" Brooker said. "Unfortunately, ownership has shifted."

Cornell Cross II, a senior from Burlington, Vt., said he is looking to transfer to another school because the scandal has "severely devalued and hurt the reputation of my degree."

"We have asked and asked and asked to see the finances of our school and what they're doing with our money, and we've been told no," said, Cross who is majoring in government. "Now we know why. As a student, I'm not going to stand for it any longer."

P.S. -- Doesn't it remind you a lot of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker? Jerry Falwell conned them out of their gig after Jim was sent to prison. I wonder who will take over this outfit?

Somebody will have to remind me again how this sort of behavior fits in with the teachings in the New Testament that Christians claim they follow. WWJD? The "D" stands for drive. A white Lexus SUV or a red Mercedes convertible? I'll have to look that up in that Prosperity Gospel. I'm sure it's in there somewhere.


Ninong's Bible tip of the day for practicing Christians: You probably already know from Leviticus that you should not wear garments of blended fibers but did you know that colors are forbidden? Ecclesiastes says "let your garments always be white." (Ecclesiastes 9:7-10). There are exceptions, however, such as when God wants you to walk stark naked throughout the land to impress people. (Isaiah 20:2-3)

Update:

TULSA, Okla. (AP) — Twenty years ago, televangelist Oral Roberts said he was reading a spy novel when God appeared to him and told him to raise $8 million for Roberts' university, or else he would be "called home."

Now, his son, Oral Roberts University President Richard Roberts, says God is speaking again, telling him to deny lurid allegations in a lawsuit that threatens to engulf this 44-year-old Bible Belt college in scandal.

Here.

P.S. -- I wonder if God put in an appearance at Kent Hovind's trial to tell him to deny the tax evasion charges?

P.P.S. -- Check out this photo of Lindsay Roberts (Mrs. Richard Roberts) on their official website. As you can see, she's a lot younger than her husband. He dumped his first wife for Lindsay. Lindsay's the one who has been running up an $800/month phone bill texting "underage males between 1 a.m. to 3 a.m."

Here's a photo that is captioned "President Richard Roberts and First Lady Lindsay Roberts." I found it in the section titled "President and First Lady."


Here's another photo of Lindsay Roberts in case their official website goes down. If you're an "underage male," Lindsay might be able to make room for you in her boytoy program.

I had no idea ORU was such a swinging place!?! All those students at Bob Jones are missing out on a lot of fun times.

[schrocat]

[wozza]

Yes

sorry i have had no input to this thread and this isnt realy eather, but do you realy seriously belive that?
i have never had any kind of interaction with someone that thinks this way, im amazed.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Originally Posted by wozza

sorry i have had no input to this thread and this isnt realy eather, but do you realy seriously belive that?
i have never had any kind of interaction with someone that thinks this way, im amazed.

Yes. The problem is that so few people actually care to know what Genesis 1-3 are even talking about. What people have always hated most about the Bible is what it tells us about ourselves. The natural response is to discredit the source...

Well, there it is. You have now had an interaction with someone who thinks this way...and you survived

[wozza]

Well, there it is. You have now had an interaction with someone who thinks this way...and you survived

haha i wasnt scared or anything, just over here in england there arnt many religious people so its rare to find one that belives so hard.

but still im speachless that you think the world is only 6000 years old even with carbon dateing and all that.
But hey im not one to judge as long as you dont try and push your views on others and are a nice guys then what does it matter to me what or who u belive in.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Originally Posted by wozza

haha i wasnt scared or anything, just over here in england there arnt many religious people so its rare to find one that belives so hard.

Well, I've got some friends there if you're looking for a good church

but still im speachless that you think the world is only 6000 years old even with carbon dateing and all that.

Brace yourself. Are you sitting? Genesis 1-3 isn't about how old the earth is. Read it yourself. And ask while reading it: what is the main point that the author is trying to communicate? Then read John 1 (Thats the New Testament, 4th book in). Have a great Sunday!

[wozza]

Well, I've got some friends there if you're looking for a good church

haha im good thanks buddy

Brace yourself. Are you sitting? Genesis 1-3 isn't about how old the earth is. Read it yourself. And ask while reading it: what is the main point that the author is trying to communicate? Then read John 1 (Thats the New Testament, 4th book in). Have a great Sunday!

well again im good thanks i find it hard enough to read books about things im interested in let alone things im not.

james

[wozza]

actually i would like to know your views one the part one of this film documentry.

ZEITGEIST, The Movie - Official Release - Full Film


thanks james