Non-native species and the immune system

[wgscott]

I just read the (closed) thread in the main section about introducing blue tangs into Fla. waters. In general, I think this is extremely ecologically unsound, and the history of endangered/extinct species in our lifetime can be written almost entirely in terms of introduced exotic species (starlings, house sparrows, carp, exotic birds in hawaii, etc.).

But the other disturbing thing about that thread were a couple references to the immune system.

The first one basically said Native Americans died off because they had immune systems incapable of dealing with European diseases. The immune systems of Native Americans are identical to all other humans and mammals. Basically each individual generates a library of about a billion antibodies and abot a billion MHC molecules, and from this library an immune resonse is raised when the antigen challenges it. It has nothing to do with heredity, race, or even species within mammals. I know the poster didn't mean it this way, but it is implicitly racist and it is also historically revisionist in that most of the Native population was exterminated. Those that did die from disease usually succumbed when presented with smallpox-infested blankets, etc.

The other is that the fish would be immuno-suppressed from being in an aquarium that was sterile. First of all, aquariums aren't sterile, and secondly since they were wild-caught to begin with, they were probably exposed to various common fish diseases prior to becoming captive. Immunological memory is forever.

[icemark]

While I agree the actions of introducing a non-native species into a local habitat is reprehensable I am not following you on this:

historically revisionist in that most of the Native population

More than 75% of the native populations in the Caribbean basin and Florida were exterminated by the introduction of previously unknown diseases, from the early European explorers such as small pox and measles. Diseases that many Europeans had developed resistance too.

This although generally morally unacceptable today was common throughout the history of our planet. Some paleontologists even suggest that such events could have caused the extinction of the dinosaurs even though the current thought it that asteroids or the like caused mass extinctions.

I guess I am wondering if you are supporting or disagreeing with the fact of the extermination of the early Americans in that area by European diseases.

[wgscott]

Disease certainly played a role, as it did in the Nazi concentration camps, but in both cases the primary causes of death were systematic slaughter. Nobody inhertis immunity to diseases. The primary reason why the Natives contracted smallpox is because they were deliberately infected with blankets. Europeans are not more immune to small pox, but they did realize how it was spread, and could use this both to avoid exposure and to use it as a weapon.

[Bughead]

Any American or European who has travelled abroad to Asia, Africa, etc. knows what a ship-load of inoculations one has to endure to protect oneself from the diseases common in these foreign lands that the body has had no exposure to and therefore no protective antibodies.

I agree that the human immune system is created equal among human beings, regardless of race or nationality. But there are some differences between the races that are genetic. This isn't because a group of people were created differently, but rather that group was not exposed environmentally gradually and long enough time ago to "amend" a certain gene. For example, Afro-Americans are much more suceptible to diabetes than people of European descent. Why? (This is only a theory) Maybe because for centuries Europeans valued sugar and would eat it every chance they got. During the Renaissance people of the upper class would sweeten all their food, even put sugar in soup. Over the hundreds of years they trained their pancreas to produce more insulin to take care of the excess sugar.

So, then two or three hundred years ago, we began stealing native Africans from their land and bringing them to America. Now for eons, these people had a healthy lifestyle with very little extra sweetening, save for fresh fruit, in their diet. Suddenly they're eating the unhealthy European/American diet loaded with extra fats and sugars. Their pancreas haven't had the hundreds of years exposure to this, so they're not able to keep pumping out the extra insulin needed and sometimes the pancreas just shut down.

I'm not saying this is gospel. This is a debatable theory, and that's all it is-a theory. A possible explanation for the fact that Afro-Americans have a high incidence of diabetes and hypertension. Native Africans apparently have a much lower incidence of these diseases.

A similar theory could explain why Native Americans seem to have the "alcoholism gene". I'm in no way being racist here. Obviously the races have differences; facial features, body build, skin color. There's other physical differences, too. But immunity isn't one of them.

[wgscott]

I'm not suggesting that the races don't differ genetically. They of course do. That is what "race" really comes down to. I'm just saying that in general they don't differ much in their susceptibility to infectious diseases, at least in terms of immune system response. Diabetes is not an infectious disease, nor is alcoholism. It turns out there is a very common gene in Asian and Native American populations that essentially makes them unable to process large quantities of alcohol; they have a different alcohol dehydrogenase. Africans (and others) with sickle-cell anemia are less likely to get maleria, and black people in general don't get lice, so there are also differences with respect to infectious diseases.

[Bughead]

Afros don't get lice? Wow! I knew the other stuff, but I didn't know that one. Any idea why, I mean like a different chemical in the sweat glands that's offensive to lice? Another racial difference I think is so neat is the Inuits (Eskimos) have a difference in their circulatory system that enables them to withstand extreme cold for long periods of time. What fascinating studies, anthropology and genetics.

Our ability to ward off viruses and bacteria is acquired. Basic immune systems are pretty much the same. Altho, here's something a little odd, and it's neither racial nor genetic (I don't think), just different. I seem to have an immunity to the herpes virus. To my knowlege I've never had chicken pox or a cold sore, and as a mother and a nurse, I've been exposed a lot. Another thing is I'm a 'Strep Mary'. During the cold and flu season I harbor the strep bacteria and pass it around to everyone I touch, but I never feel any ill effects. My poor kids had more than their fair share of strep throat, but I always felt fine. I guess my karma was having to take care of them when they were so sick.

[wgscott]

Fun infectious disease facts...

I have no idea why black people generally don't get lice. I am sure there are exceptions, but I have read that in several places.

Herpes viruses are pretty weird. You might be infected and never know. 97% of Americans have Epstein Barr virus, a herpes virus that causes mononucleosis, for example, and some cancers. I don't think I have had chicken pox (Herpes Zoster) either, but I wouldn't count on it. These viruses can lie dormant for decades, and then reappear. People who get shingles usually aquire the virus as a childhood chicken pox infection. Herpes Simplex Type I (cold sore viruses) seem to appear out of nowhere. I started getting one about 5 years ago, only when I get really majorly run down. Now I keep a bottle of acylovir in the medicine cabinet in case it comes back, which it seems to about once every year or two. Herpes 8 is associated with Kaposi's sarcoma, and I think that cancer is exceptionally rare unless you have HIV. Also it has now been associated with multiple myeloma, a bone marrow cancer that is pretty nasty and whose incidence, about 3/100,000, appears to be on the rise. My mother was just diagnosed with that. My stepfather (her husband) died of it a few years ago. The incidence in women is about 1/100,000, so the probability of them both getting it is less than 1 in a billion. Makes you wonder about viral transmission, eh?

As I am sure you know, everyone has the strep bacterium present, but it is a mystery why sometimes it can cause infections. Another weird thing is that this is the bacterium also responsible for dental carries (cavities) and, yes, you can catch dental decay by sharing a toothbrush.

We know now that ulcers and possibly some coronary artery diseases are caused by a bacterium. I wonder how many other supposedly chronic conditions are actually the result of infectious agents? My guess is we will find out that altzheimer's disease and several other cancers are infectious agents at some point.

I also read that herpes virus 8 has been implicated in some cases of autism.

[Aragorn]

All I can say is...WOW...I never knew this stuff(except for the strep thing). Very interesting material.

[wgscott]

My wife is a virologist and immunologist.

[Aragorn]

Very cool.
Before I became involved in Computer Science, that's where I wanted to direct my career. Funny how "life" has those little twists, eh?

[ranaman]

Just a note, my old copy of DESTRUCTIVE AND USEFUL INSECTS by Metcalf, Flint, and Metcalf says the human head and body louse is found worldwide on all races and has been found on non human primates in captivity. They state that the body louse appears to be a variety of the head louse. Body lice are adapted to clothing and hold onto clothing while feeding. It was suggested that body lice are less common in the tropics the reason might be that people wear less clothing and the lice dislike high tempartures.
Crab or pubic lice according to them only occur on in their words "Known to attack only the white and Negro races of man." Most lice are adapted to be able to hold onto hair of a certain diameter. Too large or too small a hair they can't hang on and eventually fall off. This is the main requirement for a louse a host with the right sized hair.

[Salty Dog]

Originally posted by wgscott
Fun infectious disease facts...

Herpes viruses are pretty weird. You might be infected and never know. 97% of Americans have Epstein Barr virus, a herpes virus that causes mononucleosis, for example, and some cancers.

What study did you get this info from? What cancers were attributed to the Epstein-Barr virus??

[wgscott]

Don't they teach you any of this stuff in chiropractic school? See any standard virology text, eg., D O White & F J Fenner, Medical Virology 4th ed., Academic Press, 1994. pp. 186-189 discuss its etiology with respect to Burkitt's Lymphoma, B-Cell Lymphomas and Nasopharyneal Carcinoma. On page 346 it says 80% of people are infected, not 97%, but I think this refers to Australia, where the book was written. Or maybe the other 17% cleared the virus after high-velocity neck corrections. Anyway you can always check the medical literature http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ for free.

BTW, do you still worry that the neighbor's cat will contract ich from eating a lionfish buried in your backyard?

[Salty Dog]

No.......they did not go into detailed analysis of the etiology of the Epstein-Barr virus and it's relation to different cancers. Just like everyone else in every profession other then virology and some oncologists I learned about the symptoms caused by it to assist in a proper diagnosis. I don't quite see your point........other then trying to come across as being smarter then me because your wife helped you look up something in her books

All I did was ask a simple question because I was interested to see how large a study was performed to conclude that 97% (virtually all) people have Epstein-Barr.

I do not know why you are so touchy and don't really care as I am not about to start a pointless arguement with you that will end in nothing more then a closed thread.

If you don't like chiorpractors then please don't go to one. Lord knows I am booked into August so I sure don't need ya

[Aragorn]

Don't take it personally Salty Dog. Wgscott is an "equal opportunity insulter", right Wg? He just enjoys wearing his "intellectual prowess" on his sleeve.

[wgscott]

At least it takes up very little sleave space.


Salty dog knows quite a bit ... about getting bulletin boards shut down, like his infamous GARF threads at www.reefs.org ;;

But it was his thread on how best to kill his lionfish, description of pithing, followed by his concern that the neighbor's cat would get ich if he burried it in the garden and the cat dug it up and ate it that really had me rolling on the floor laughing off my caudal fin.

But hey, he is a professional health-care provider who provides an alternative to the evil, narrow-minded practicioners of allopathic medicine. If we really wind him up he might even tell his deeply moving story about how he cured people while strolling through India one day.

[Salty Dog]

I don't know why I expected more from someone stupid enough to make a unprovable moronic statement like all people(97% same thing) have Epstein-Barr You couldn't be any dumber if you tried.

You may also want to at least tell the truth when trying to cast insults. I guess out of all the people in the GARF threads I am the only one to blame for the eventual mess right? (BTW that was my first post EVER on a forum of any kind........sad start huh?) My post about how to humanely put down a fish has been asked MANY times probably before and since my thread and yet because I questioned someone's ability to properly pith a fish and suggested that it may not be best to bury fish that died from disease somehow your story becomes I didn't want a cat to get ich.........creative mind, stupid but creative. I doubt you will find many people to positively say that no harm could come from dead diseased marine fish being exposed to land locked animals of any kind..........but your cat getting ich story sounds much better. Lastly it was Nepal where I helped people with no money, no health care and so poor some barely had clothing let alone homes and food. I paid $4,000 for that trip with student loan money and worked 12hr days out of tents in villages on hillsides and old abandoned buildings. Our camps looked like woodstock footage as buses dropped off whole schools of children(as many as 800/hour on some days) and all we got in return was thousands of smiles and heartfelt thank you's(Namaste) (waking up under Mt Everest was kinda cool too) and a lifetime of treasured memories. When you have done something 1/100th that unselfish and caring then you will earn the right to make it sound trivial........until then......wait you never will so forget it.

A few things that prevent a moron like you from bothering me with petty-childish comments.

My work is just too satisfying. Not many people LOVE what they do yet I am one of them. Improving quality of life is a very rewarding experience.

I realize that you are nothing more then a blip on a screen and would never say the stuff you do if standing face to face with me(and others) because you would not be standing for very long

Being on pace to make 160,000 little green friends by the end of the year plus my wife being an oncology RN has us ahead of schedule to retire at 45. Whoever said it doesn't buy happiness will still be working as I am teeing off 5 days/week and sipping Margarita's in the sun

Have fun in bitterland USA pal............trust me you are missing a great world........but we are not missing you!!!

[wgscott]

For those interested, here are the infamous GARF files at reefs.org:

http://www.reefs.org/cgi-bin/ultimat...f=31&SUBMIT=Go

You have to hand it to him; he made history.

Now if only I could get rid of this crick in my neck Maybe I will go try leaches.

OK, I'll shut up and go away now. ;;

[Salty Dog]

Originally posted by wgscott

OK, I'll shut up and go away now. ;;

Finally, something we can ALL agree on

[wgscott]

You quack me up.