[FishKid]

well, I have money laying on the side, and was thinking what to get. It is between several coral, and a poison dart frog set-up... I think I am going to go allong with the frogs, yet another pricey venture! and buy some corals after I get back from vacation...

anyone here keep them? If so, do you know of any site where I can find info on starting the set-up? I found one site that shows how to make it cheap, and want to know of any other methods and tips of the trade.

thanks
mark

[Biomanjcs72]

Don't know anything about keeping them, but I have seen them in the wild, and I have this to say....Buy captive bred frogs (I'm pretty sure the are available) THe wild populations are already under too much pressure with habitat destruction and the ozone thinning (I think) thingy that's killing the eggs. That's all.

[FishKid]

I never buy wild caught animals, something about taking an animal out of a mile wide territory and throwing it in a small tank makes me feel bad!

I did alot of research today, and It seems alot like the reefing hobby, Instead of DSB its DSB (Deep Soil Bed) well not really, but the soil is used for the same fundamental purpose.. Costs alot of money! BUT, no patience required !

I will be transforming that extra 29 gal into a vivarium which will take a while to setup!

Any herpers out there have tips for a successful vivarium setup with a water fall, and stream?

mark

[Reinhold]

FishKid:

You are one energetic kid!

Be careful with tropical frogs in general. They aren't called Poison Dart Frogs for nothin'. Envenomations are still fairly common, some quite severe.

[petpoor]

Just curious how can one be envenomated by a frog? To my knowledge Poison Dart frogs lose their toxicity anyway when in captivity due to their diet. If I were you though I wouldn't go around sucking on a Dart Frog, they can poison you but not envenomate you as they have no fangs or stinger to inject venom.
Tom

[ranaman]

I guess I should be dead. I know three people who have survived cobra bites. Have meet the man who locally survived a king cobra bite. Know alot of people who have had run ins with alot of herps, but never had any frog people tell me they had a close call with dart frogs. I did meet one gent who did pop a wild caught leucomelas in his mouth with no ill effects, but he did work for Tom Crutchfield.
Dart frogs lose their toxicty in captivity and captive born frogs are no more toxic than leopard or bullfrogs. I still don't reccomend sticking your finger in your mouth after handling frogs some can give a big surprise. Still rather have some irritation than a venomous snake bite.
If you keep dart frogs be prepared to learn the JOY OF FRUIT FLY Cultures and other small feeder bugs. If you can find a termite nest your frogs will be in heaven. My Phyllobates bicolor will eat small meal worms, but any self respecting Dendrobates will turn their nose up at them. They will eat flour beetle larvae though go fig. See your already on www.kingsnake.com

[FishKid]

yup, asked the general questions there... Captive bred Poison dart Frogs, are supposedly the least poisonous, as compared to other commonly kept frogs. All amphibians have somewhat toxic skin, I think the main reason is to protect against bacteria.

You can be envenomated by them, if you decide for some reason or another that they look yummy, or you have an open laceration, and are handling the frogs.

ranaman, can you post a picture of how your set-up looks? do you use live moss?

"You are one energetic kid!" - gotta keep movin'!



mark

[Reinhold]

petpoor and ranaman:

Regarding your comments about the benign nature of frog "envenomization" (the poisoning caused by a bite, sting or other transfer of venom,) I'll have to inform my Emergency Medicine professors that they were wrong about these things being dangerous.

From a recent article on poison frogs and possible medical uses of their venom:

"Chivian cited the case of the dart-poison frog that secretes some of the deadliest natural toxins known. "Many species of these frogs are endangered, and some may have become extinct because of the destruction of the low-lying rain forest in Central and South America where they live," he said.

The frog-derived toxins have been used for centuries by the native population for tipping their hunting weapons: arrows and blowgun darts. Their toxic effects are attributable to the fact that they bind selectively to sodium and potassium channels, calcium pumps, and acetylcholine receptors in nerve and muscle, causing paralysis. "Over 500 of these biologically active alkaloids have been detected, and the structure of 20 different classes has been elucidated," said Edson X. Albuquerque, MD, chair of the Department of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, Baltimore. "

I mistakenly said "Good by" to Reefland last evening after yet another spanking by the moderators, but I really meant "Good night." There is still too much misinformation out there to leave just yet.

[fishguy_8]

alot of people end up the hospital because they will lick the backs of a dart frog..... it acts as a hallucinagin(sp?) there is a whole "group" in cali. that raises hundreds of darts and love to lick'em. fishkid i recommend that ya dont.....there is a way to dust the frogs feed in order to keep the toxicity w/ them but most choose not to as a precaution. fishkid i have a bunch of links here ya go....
http://www.saurian.net/ http://www.blackjungle.com/animals.htm http://www.timberlinefisheries.com/ http://www.dendrobates.com/ http://www.lllreptile.com/ http://home.att.net/~a.j.calisi/ http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/6113/

many many more....i cant think of the site but there is a guy named David Doyle.... ask around and i'm sure you'll find his website....he's kinda referred to as the Dr. Ron S. of the dart frog hobby.....if ya got a question odds are he'll know the answer. and hes a very nice guy i have exchanged emails w/ him and he's always quick to respond. good luck.

Jon

[BTL]

Actually, most of the "Frog lickers" lick the colorado river toad, Bufo Alvarius whos paritord secretions do act as a mild hallucogen. If you lick a dart frog (and only w/c have posion, all the previous people who posted on this matter are correct that they lose their toxicness in captivity) it would either: A) kill you (most phyllobates species); B) put you into a coma like state for a few hours (most dendrobate species); or C) only have mild effects. To my knowldege no dart frog posions act as hallocugones, but most of them are just very powerful barachotoxins or histotoxins that act like painkillers. This is why there is so much research into using some dart frog toxins (spefically E. tricolor) to develop a new pain killer that would replace morphine.

I have been researching/keeping dart frogs for over 4 years, they are no small endvor, and i actually find them more challenging then salt water. Good luck Fishkid! Oh, and go to kingsnake.com and check out the "Arrow frog" forum, it is a good resouce.

Ira

[ranaman]

So according to this thinking you can be envenomated by a castor bean or coca plant since they produce aklaloids too. The frog mentioned in the study is Epipedobates tricolor a rather small and varible dart frog, they have been seperated from Phyllobates. They may have skin toxins but now where near as potent as Phyllobates terribilis. An adult wild frog is supposed to have 10 human lethal doses in their skin. They are the only frog that could be fatal by touching it, the Amerinds use leaves to pick them up. In capitvity they do lose their toxicity and captive born are non-toxic. Mind you there has been research on how to maintain toxicty. If you need some toxin for research it is much easier if you can figure out what precursors the frogs need in their diet to produce the toxin.
BTW by all means tell your emergency medicene professors. The man who was bit by the king cobra had treatment delayed because they brought tiger snake antivenin, which does work on king cobra venom. The other cobra bite was delayed because my friend brought cape cobra anti venin, for the victum which will work agaisnt asian cobras, but the book said it would not work agaisnt all asian cobras. Try explaining to an ER doc that that means the phillipine subspecies, not the Thai subspecies.
The people who lick "frogs" don't lick frogs at all but toads mainly the marine toad and colorado river toad. Enough for now I got to get back to work.

[Reinhold]

I guess the moral to this story is know your frogs before you lick them, (kind of like significant others.)

A true story:

Ranaman was interested in studying how far poison dart frogs can jump. He brought a PD frog into his den, set it down, and commanded, "Jump, frog, jump!

The frog jumped across the room.

Ranaman measured the distance, then noted in his journal, "Frog with four legs - jumped eight feet."

Then he cut the frog's front legs off. Again he ordered, "Jump, frog, jump!"

The frog struggled a moment, then jumped a few feet.

After measuring the distance, Ranaman noted in his journal, "Frog with two legs - jumped three feet."

Next, the Ranaman cut off the frog's back legs. Once more, he shouted, "Jump, frog, jump!"

The frog just laid there.

"Jump, frog, jump!" Ranaman repeated.

Nothing happened.

Ranaman noted in his journal, "Frogs with no legs - lose their hearing."

[fishguy_8]

correct me if i'm wrong but i thought it was Xenopus laevis that has the ability to produce a toxin stronger than morphine.....i'm 99.9% sure this one does maybe tricolor does as well....xenopus laevis, i have a pair of these guys by the way , also is the infamous frog that was used as the "dna-filler" in Jurrasic Park if you all recall they have the ability to spontaneously switch from sex to sex.....my pair i got as juvi's they are full grown fat boys/girls now....they started singing about 3months after i bought them and since then i havent had a good nights sleep unless i turn on a fan to drown out the noise. either way......fishkid if you are going to do the dart frog thing do it just like you would a sw. system.....slow. get the tank full of plants and such.....get the humidity just right.....order your fruit fly's and get some cultures going a few months be4 getting your dart frog. might i suggest the green and black dart frog....the sci. name has slipped my for the moment if you go to those sites i'm sure you'll see what i am referring to. they are very appealing to the eye and are quite hardy from my research.
good luck
Jon

[ranaman]

African clawed frogs contain a toxin that is an antifeedant, I don't think it acts as a narcotic. when I bred ACF some of the off spring managed to jump in with my breeder Argentine horned frogs. To my surprise they weren't eaten. I did see a large female grab one and then spit them out. I think it is supposed to make garter snakes start "yawning" so they can't swallow. ACF main recent medical contribution are chemicals called magainin, these are peptides that have antibiotic properties. They were discovered by a doctor that was using them in research. He was doing surgery on them and he realised that he wasn't losing any frogs to infection even though the water was far from pristine. Then he asked the question why. Sometimes in pays to get sidetracked in research.

[ranaman]

Just some pics of the tincs

[ranaman]

A terrrium with several dart species, not reccomended for breeding. The main problem is the frogs will hybridise. This tank is based on a 55 size tank.

[petpoor]

ranaman,
Cool setups are they yours?
Tom

[ranaman]

Sort of, they are on display at work. The tincts belong to the company the others are mine.