[SeaBean]

The Amish make a living in this county yet avoid taxes.

They live in isolated groups made up of only other Amish.

The men wear hats and the women wear bonnets on their heads. The dress like they are still in the middle 18th century.

Most have no interest in learning the language (or culture) of our country. (They speak a german dialect, particularly around non-Amish.)

Are the Amish any less American than we are, than Arab Americans? Are they both unique patches on this glorious American quilt? I think so.

[icemark]

whoops posted twice

[icemark]

The amish are cool... I think most of us could take lessons from them on tolerance and living with the land and means.

Now I could skip the religon and funky clothes but that is just a matter of personal opinon/taste... I am sure they would think the jeans, polo and T shirts I wear all the time would be weird as well.

SeaBean is right:

Are the Amish any less American than we are, than Arab Americans? Are they both unique patches on this glorious American quilt? I think so.

And Salty Dog & mrok12 you say your student loan debt has five or six figures... I have to ask how much did your tanks/system cost? A couple thou? I know a couple people on this board that have at least 10 thousand into thier tanks.

Not meaning to tell you (or anyone) how to live, but I would have paid off student debt first. I just can't feel sorry.

[mrok12]

The point is the law does not require them to pay taxes for a period of seven years. Listen, I don't think it's right but screaming about "individuals" is pointless. The system must change and that is the bottom line. I live very close to Dearborn, and there are some reports of vandalism now. People need to keep a level head.

Salty for that matter large corporation literally tell the government what they are going to pay.

Hell, The alternative minimum tax was brought into being so rich people would have to pay something because they had a crap load of deductions and were not paying taxes because of tax shelters and freaking loopholes. THE SYSTEM WAS CHANGED AND THE LOOPHOLES WERE CLOSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is why the system must be changed before the people will change there actions.
To use a metaphore you have used. Don't you think more people think twice now before getting behind the wheel intoxicated? Why? Because your ass goes to JAIL,pays fines, and if you get labeled as a habitual offender in michigan, hey you get 10 YEARS in THE pen married to BUBBA.

MROK12

[mrok12]

I have a 120 gallon and a 65 gallon, and you are right about the expense. I am just saying it seems like this is the only country on earth that will give people from forieng land tax free loans ,interest free loans I mean; when it does not do the same for it's own citizens. If I am wrong please correct me, PLEASE. The amish fact is something I did not know, thanks for the enlightenment. As for my tank, It is not unusual that my wife and will spend 400-600 a month on our "toys". We are kinda just big kids. But I don't use credit,cash is the rule when buying one's toys in our house.

MROK12

[mrok12]

Debt is a fact of life,please no sympathy. I'm on 28 and make a hell of good living and so does my wife. America is great and I thank god for it. My debt will be gone in time, for that matter I just had the first house my wife and I have ever lived in built last year, probably should pay the house of before having a life too, but that is not practicle, As I said I don't use credit for anything anyway, my education and my wife's was a different story though. Can't afford grad school on part time wages.

MROK12

[Salty Dog]

Originally posted by SeaBean
The Amish make a living in this county yet avoid taxes.

They live in isolated groups made up of only other Amish.

The men wear hats and the women wear bonnets on their heads. The dress like they are still in the middle 18th century.

Most have no interest in learning the language (or culture) of our country. (They speak a german dialect, particularly around non-Amish.)

Are the Amish any less American than we are, than Arab Americans? Are they both unique patches on this glorious American quilt? I think so.

1. I would not consider how the Amish make a living even close to the revenue that gets generated from a business like 7-11 or a gas station or doughnut shop. Amish are not involved in business on any level except maybe furniture and I would say that is even a small percentage.

2. They live in isolated groups because no one else lives like they do. They have no electric or plumbing and work very very hard. I would say it is others who isolate themselves from the Amish simply because they would never want to live that way. Arabs live the same as we do in towns just like yours and mine, they isolate themselves within society by choice. Once again I want to say that this is most likely a comforting thing for them and not wrong in and of itself, however I don't think it endears them to the average American either.

3. At least it's 18th century AMERICA. Out of date is not the same as out of country.

4. I have about 25-30 Amish patients from a near by community that all speak perfect english and every Amish person I ever met that lived near our hunting cabins growing up all spoke without even a hint of an accent so I don't know what you mean??? If waking up at sunrise to work and live off the land is not American culture I must really have slept through school. Just because they don't use the internet and drive a sports car with gel in their beards doesn't make them unamerican in culture. If anything I would say they are the closest link to the good clean hard working spirit that got us to where we are today. They may be left behind a bit compared to today but I really don't see the similarity you are trying for.

I think you may want to pull that American quilt down a bit because it is covering your eyes and ears to what life is really like.

I think this thread has quickly gone off course into opinions as to whether or not these things do infact make arabs any less American then others. The facts are plain and simple. All these things are true and if you can honestly say that when you look at an arab in a full robe and turbin speaking a foreign language, driving his foreign car to his home that he paid for with money he made here and did not pay taxes on, in a all arab neighborhood the first thing that comes to your mind is "There goes a true blue die hard American" I find that extremely hard to believe. Now picture a man tossing his hard hat in the back of his Chevy and dusting off his jeans before getting in and going home to his house which is located in the best neighborhood he can afford no matter who else lives there, because after Uncle Sam chops his paycheck up and the bills are paid he hopes he has enough left to eat more then hamburger helper 3 days a week and maybe take the boy to a ballgame or two..............yea I guess you are right they are the same

[Salty Dog]

icemark,

I wasn't asking for anyone's sympathy for my loan debt. I make plenty of money to cover my debts and my reef tank. It doesn't mean that I have to like it though

[Salty Dog]

Let's not forget that my initial response was because some people were painting arabs and Americans into one big happy rainbow. Now as much as we all might want and wish that were true it simply is not. The fact remains that as long as the things I have listed continue to be seen in the arab communities they will never be accepted as fellow Americans on the same level as your average Joe down the street.

If you don't believe me get into full arabic dress and stand in the parking lot of any major auto plant in Detroit and take a poll of guys leaving work to see if they would consider arabs on the same level as their co-workers as all one big American brotherhood.

Disclaimer........Salty Dog is in no way at fault for anyone silly enough to put his life in danger by attempting such a foolish stunt.

[SPasse]

Salty Dog,

I believe that your “observations” about “Arab” Americans are the same observations that “Second Generation and latter” Americans have/do make about any first generation immigrants. Some examples:

1 During the early/mid 1800’s, there was a large immigration of Chinese “coolie” labor, into CA and other western states.

2 During the early part of this century, there was a large influx of Eastern Europeans into the US to work in the factory/sweatshops of a rapidly industrializing US.

3 Today there is an ongoing large influx of Hispanic people from Mexico and Latin America.

I could go on and on…

But in each case throughout history, a large percentage of the “established” “American” population made the same observations about the incoming wave of immigrants that you mention… i.e. “The won’t speak English, they stick to themselves, they don’t pay their taxes.

These perceptions by the “established” American population is often effected by how much different a cultures customs, dress, religious affiliation etc. is from the “Western European Benchmark” that the “established” American population uses as a point of reference. I.e. the more a culture is divergent from the “Western European Standard”, the more a culture draws unwelcome attention to itself.

I remember my first generation German American grandparents talking about the discrimination that they faced because they spoke a foreign language (or even with a foreign accent), dressed funny, and were “un-American”.

A “War” or near War environment, always exacerbates this situation. During WWI German Americans received extra “attention” from the “established” American population. Yet one generation latter, the American Passe’s were shooting at the German Passe’s in WWII.

We all know what happened to the loyal, hard working Japanese Americans during WWII. And there was not a single documented case of a Japanese American commuting sabotage in the US. Indeed the fighting record of Japanese American service men was exemplary, even when their parents were in American concentration camps.

The American “melting pot” has always been tenuous for first generation Americans, alas, someday I hope us “established” Americans can learn from our own history…

Regards,

Scott Passe

[mrok12]

Salty you are right about one thing. putting on full arab dress in front of wayne assembly in Wayne michigan might get your butt beat. I also agree that sympathy was not the issue in the discussion about the student loans, I also make enough to live comfortably,"doesn't mean I have to like it either".

Anyway, I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas on this matter, It's tough sometimes to find someone to grind it out with. Thanks again salty dog.

MROK12

[Salty Dog]

Originally posted by SPASSE
These perceptions by the “established” American population is often effected by how much different a cultures customs, dress, religious affiliation etc. is from the “Western European Benchmark” that the “established” American population uses as a point of reference. I.e. the more a culture is divergent from the “Western European Standard”, the more a culture draws unwelcome attention to itself.

Scott,

Your post touches on many of the points that we all know to be true. You are right, any harsh or violent treatment towards these people is uncalled for and will just be added to the list you provided of hot tempered action towards people who are different in time of crisis.

I wouldn't call them perceptions by established Americans just because they are different from our standard though. Not paying taxes has nothing to do with culture or customs and that is the major point behind most of the hatred felt towards arabs here. The fact that they don't speak our language and dress like they are still in the middle east and isolate themselves from others just furthers the stereotyping and anger that many hard working Americans feel towards them already. I would say that the average person on the street if shown 2 pictures, one of a regular middle class guy in jeans and a T-shirt and the other of an arab in full dress and turban would not rate them as Americans on the same level. Most would not even rate them both as Americans period.

That has been my point all along that living in America does not make you an American. Being an American is a mindset, a way of life that others do not understand. That is why they stick out so badly and that is also why terrorists can never destroy America by killing people or destroying buildings. They may live in America but until they show others that America lives in them I don't think they will be seen as true Americans in the hearts of many.

[Salty Dog]

Originally posted by mrok12
Salty you are right about one thing. putting on full arab dress in front of wayne assembly in Wayne michigan might get your butt beat. I also agree that sympathy was not the issue in the discussion about the student loans, I also make enough to live comfortably,"doesn't mean I have to like it either".

Anyway, I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas on this matter, It's tough sometimes to find someone to grind it out with. Thanks again salty dog.

MROK12

I would have to agree that if you have to choose between full arabic dress and a Red Wings jersey for a night out you probably are safer going with the Stevie Y sweater and a dead octopuss

I don't know how we got scolded for having nice reefs and the nerve to complain about our student loans either Do you no anyone who likes writing that check???

I have also enjoyed this thread as it has shown if nothing else that it is very possible to debate a topic no matter how sensitive it is right now without it degrading into a flame fest and personal remarks. I think that says a lot about those involved here. I hope things stay peaceful in Michigan for you MROK12. I heard that they arrested some people in Detroit today though so I doubt that will help

[SPasse]

Salty Dog,

I won’t comment on the “not paying taxes” issue as I need more “enlightenment” on this subject.

But again, the observations about dress and customs have been made about most of the first generation immigrants.

First generation Chinese wore pigtails, and clothes that made them “stick out like a sore thumb. They also spoke very little English, and traded/bartered in an “underground economy”

Denver has a rapidly growing Hispanic population. The same “observations” are being made about them by much of the Anglo community here. Many of the men favor White hats, big belt buckles, embroidered shirts, jeans and cowboy boots. (Often referred to as the “Mexican Cowboy Look”)

Why must it be a requirement of being a “true American” that first generation (or anyone for that matter) give up their culture, dress, or customs? So that they embody the “true American culture” (Whatever that is)

I do believe that the “lingua Franca” sp? of the US should be English, as a common language does help “glue” a melting pot society like the US together. But that does not mean that we all as Americans should not be able to celebrate and live out our cultural and religious “roots”, whatever they might be. Not that I have any great desire to wear lederhosen and suspenders, (that would not be a pretty sight ) but I would like to be able to without being thought of as a Kraut or NAZI because I did so.

The need to conform, in a generation or two, usually causes “traditional” cultures to fade out in the US, at least the overt accoutrements, and I don’t think that the Arab cultures will be particularly immune from this either.

“That has been my point all along that living in America does not make you an American. Being an American is a mindset, a way of life that others do not understand. That is why they stick out so badly and that is also why terrorists can never destroy America by killing people or destroying buildings. They may live in America but until they show others that America lives in them I don't think they will be seen as true Americans in the hearts of many.”

Being an American is a mindset related issue, but that mindset is also intertwined with a mental image of being part of an “American Culture” But what makes this a “difficult” issue for Americans is that “American culture” is both a constantly evolving thing and covers a tremendous range of cultures and life/experience perspectives. Indeed other older more traditional and monolithic cultures like Japan are convinced that the “American Experiment” will eventually self-destruct. (From internal pressures, not external ones.)

Foreign nationals and their sympathizers that are actively working against the interests of the US are a different mater, and can be dealt with without getting racial stereotyping issues involved. But I fear because some people require “simple” answers about who the “boogiemen” are, they will fall back on racial stereotyping.

Regards,

Scott Passe

[Salty Dog]

Originally posted by SPASSE
Salty Dog,

I won’t comment on the “not paying taxes” issue as I need more “enlightenment” on this subject.

Foreign nationals and their sympathizers that are actively working against the interests of the US are a different mater, and can be dealt with without getting racial stereotyping issues involved. But I fear because some people require “simple” answers about who the “boogiemen” are, they will fall back on racial stereotyping.

Regards,

Scott Passe

Not paying taxes is the issue to many. The other stuff like I said just makes them an easy target for some people not because they look and act different, but because they look and act so foreign.

Is it still a stereotype if it is true??? I have not said one thing that is false and made it very clear many times in no way am I implying that all arabs do these things yet most do. Drive through the Detroit area if you don't believe me.

I hope you are not saying that I am one of the "simple people" using stereotyping to find "boogiemen".

This thread is about whether or not arabs that do the things I stated are our "American brothers" on the same level as your neighbors, co-workers, friends and relatives. It does not matter if it is right or wrong or even if it's how we would like it to be. If you asked everyone you saw tomorrow that question you would be able to count the "yes" replies on one hand.......maybe one finger. I have not even addressed the issue of what % actually are in fact even US citizens.

[mrok12]

The dearborn area is very close were I LIVE. It is well known to be the largest population of arabic people outside of the middle east/asia. A great number of these people are citizens and a great number are not. With all the forged documents,fake identification who really knows. A sad note is a unconfirmed report that an arabic man was shot in the head yesterday evening in either dearborn or detroit.

My wife was telling me that she has a few patients that are telling her they have stocked up on ammo and other essentials in case they have to go to war here at home with these people. This is the kind of stuff that just make me say, "Oh My God"

MROK12