[Aragorn]

Now many of you know that I am not a member of any faith but I found this interesting. Whadd'ya think?

Now I sit me down in school
There praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.
Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy', our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot;
My soul please take!

Amen

[MarkS]

Amen!

Mark

[Ninong]

Originally posted by Aragorn:
Whadd'ya think?

If Scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.

Yes, it would most certainly be a clear violation of the First Amendment.

Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.

Is this true? I must be out of touch because I thought most schools, including public schools, had so-called dress codes. However, I see nothing wrong with students doing whatever they please with their hair as long as their parents approve. On the other hand, if I were on the local school board, I would probably be in favor of dress codes. So I guess that's a dilemma.

The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all.

It might also offend someone of a different faith. Would you survey the students first to find out which religious beliefs are represented and then compose one very long prayer that included all of those different beliefs, or would you favor one religion?

In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.

True. In fact, the Supreme Court just this week affirmed the right of public schools to have a minute of silent meditation at the start of each school day. Students are free to pray in silence during this period if they so choose. That doesn't seem very offensive to me.

We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.

Is this true... I mean the cuss part? I'm not talking about places like UC Berkeley but what about your average run-of-the-mill public high school? Are students allowed to use any language, including abusive and obscene language in public schools now?

They've outlawed guns,

Hmmm... I must have missed that. Are we talking about outlawing guns in school? If that's the case, I think it's probably a good idea to outlaw guns in school. If we're talking about outside of school, I believe the statement is too broad because I am not aware that "they have outlawed guns," except for certain assault rifles, etc., in some jurisdictions. Charleton Heston is really going to be pissed to find out that they have outlawed guns.

but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.

There is no way that the Bible can be construed as anything other than a religious text, and as such, it should not be studied in public schools.

We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy', our Senior King.

Sure, why not? But it might reflect the values of the student body in the eyes of the older, out-of-touch generation.

It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.

Critical thinking is still encouraged in all schools as far as I know. It is obvious that the writer is referring to areas of disagreement on what is right or wrong that are influenced by religious convictions rather than rational investigation.

We can get our condoms and birth controls,

Can students get condoms and birth controls in public schools without parental consent? In any case, the parents are responsible for raising their children, not the schools.

Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.

Study witchcraft implies that students are being taught witchcraft as some sort of worthwhile religious practice. This is a ridiculous assertion. If witchcraft is mentioned in schools at all it is probably to point out how absurd it is and how terrible it was that some two dozen women were hanged in Salem, Mass. 300 years ago, in the name of Christianity, for supposedly practicing it. Vampire bats exist, vampires exist only in fiction. Totem poles are a valuable anthropological record reflecting religious practices of tribes long gone.

But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.

The Ten Commandments would not be allowed by the First Admendment to the Constitution. The Ten Commandments are specific to Judeo-Christian religious beliefs.

It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.

If the school's a mess, it is the fault of the local school board, which is elected by the public. Maybe it's time for the parents to take a more active interest in their local school.

It would be scary indeed if the right-wing religious nutcases like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson had their way. We could become the Christian equivalent of the Taliban's version of Islam.

No authority is given in the Constitution for the government to have anything to do with religion, hence Separation of Church and State.

"The government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

Ninong

P.S. - The final statement in quotation marks is from Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship Between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Barbary, June 10, 1797. The reason for the article was to explain the position of the government of the United States of America as it pertains to the Christian religion. This was in response to concerns of foreign diplomats who adhered to the teachings of Islam.

This treaty was made under the administration of George Washington, and was signed and sealed at Tripoli on the fourth Day of November 1796, and at Algiers the third day of January 1797, by Hassan Bashaw, Bey of Algiers, and Joel Barlow, Counsul- General of the United States. This treaty was ratified by the U.S. Senate June 7, 1797 and signed into law by President John Adams June 10, 1797.

P.P.S. - The following is Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists Taken from Andrew Lipscomb and Albert Bergh, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Vol., 16, pp. 281-282.


January 1, 1802

Gentlemen,

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

Thomas Jefferson

[chromis]

I agree w/ Ninong! Why does anyone care if they cant pray in school? Pray at home, does it make a difference? At one of our local high schools there is a Bible club and a group that prays around the flag pole some mornings, I think this is to much. In certain English classes, kids study the Bible, along with the Koran, and the Torah, so it is inaccurate to say that the bible is banned from school. I dont see why people make such a big deal out of it, most of the kids I know dont even care if they can pray or not. There are other ways to express yourself then prayer, and it comes down to this, children are at school to learn, not to pray.



MO
Andrew

[Bughead]

Ninong
I'm totally impressed with your intellegent and very well thought out response.

[icemark]

yeah... exactly what Ninong said...

And I always liked that Tom Jeff guy too.

[Aragorn]

I am a firm believer of "separation of Church and State". Although I am not as articulate as Ninong, I believe that this "prayer" I found speaks volumes regarding our moral and ethical(or lack thereof) values.

Ninong,
My son, Christian, has attended school in 4 different districts here in California and not one of them ever had a dress code. Although I strictly enforce proper language in public within my family(I understand my son, nor I for that matter, is no saint) I hear these kids at the high school talk obscenely quite often.

You are absolutely right that it is the parent's job of teaching values to their children. But I do find it offensive that schools will give out condoms to CHILDREN DESPITE WHAT I BELIEVE. What are these institutions promoting? My son, as a minor, is my responsibility...not the school's...too bad other parent's don't see it that way. But that's a different subject.

[chromis]

I have never seen condoms being given out at a public school, maybe its different here in Virginia.

[nucleuscracker]

- Ninong.....what kind of medication are you taking? j/k.

I think to allow prayer into schools would be a mistake. At least around here in the detroit area the schools have such a diverse population that some religion would be left out and as a result...lawsuit. (sadly enough)

Dress codes are needed to prevent competition as well as death. Not to long ago it was common for someone to loose their life over a pair of tennis shoes (happened outside my dad's school where he was principal). We also had a kid back in June that was shot over his $1000 sunglasses. (story is that he had a job and saved up for these glasses. He was looking to sell them though to prevent something like this...little late i guess)


anyhow....jmo