[Andrew007]

Could someone please help me to talk Joaco into getting his ass out of that country ASAP?? dammit he won't listen to me!

From www.buenosairesherald.com

----------------------
As the recent fate of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and that unpleasant sham that called itself the “German Democratic Republic” reminded us, nation states can die. One day they are there and look solid enough, the next they have been consigned to what Leon Trotsky called the rubbish heap of history. Though the remaining body parts may then be cannibalized to feed some newer and, perhaps, more promising example of the breed, once they have departed something, even if it is only a complicated network of loyalties that provided a framework in which people live their lives, is lost for ever.
For the last year or so, Argentina has been edging nearer to the queue that is awaiting its turn outside the knacker’s yard where “failed states” are broken up. Some suspect it will soon barge its way towards the front. Last week, a former president of Uruguay, no less, titillated Spaniards with an article in El País in which he posed the question: Does Argentina still exist or has it already left us? Being an optimist at heart, towards the end of his article Julio María Sanguinetti did find some reasons for hope of which the most encouraging was the allegedly splendid quality of Argentina’s “human capital.”
The trouble is, people have been going on for decades about just how exceptionally bright they think Argentines are, but this belief — which, as might be expected is popular among Argentine intellectuals — has surely contributed a great deal to the collective debacle by making too many of them assume that the country’s plight is none of their doing or that, seeing they are so clever, they will find it easy to wriggle out of any hole they may have fallen into while their eyes were fixed on the stars. In any case, even were it to be proved beyond doubt that Argentina really is home to an astonishing number of Übermenschen that would be no consolation at all: the Titanic would have gone down just as fast if every single passenger had been a PhD.
For several months now, the country has been drifting about in choppy waters with the weather getting steadily colder and the icebergs closing in. It has just narrowly avoided a debt default, which is just as well, but in doing so it set course towards what many think looks like nasty social upheaval: trying to balance the books is not compatible with splurging on welfare. Should it crash into it, all hopes of economic recovery would have to be put on hold indefinitely, thereby darkening still further the horizon before much of the population. Then Argentina would be on its own in a world in which most countries are striving to get one over on their “competitors,” the top nations are not feeling very charitable and investors are uninterested in places which according to the natives could blow up at any moment.
The events in Salta were ominous not because they told us anything new about the desperate state of that province and of most others, but because many people decided that the time had come to exploit the unrest. Politicians such as Elisa Carrió and Carlos Ruckauf, agents provocateurs wearing balaclavas who to the dismay of more peaceful protesters trash shops and bank windows, plus a considerable number of what are known as communicators, are in their different ways doing their best to revive the mood of the early 1970s when many took it for granted that violence was justified by the sheer awfulness of it all. Together, they are preparing a noxious brew by pouring into the cauldron increasingly large quantities of nationalist sentiment, hatred for capitalism and utter contempt for politicians, especially for the President.
Carrió, who according to the pollsters is currently the most admired politician in the country, roundly declared that in her view blocking highways was perfectly legitimate, though she did soften her posture later on by admitting that she thought shooting at gendarmes sent to open them again was wrong. Would paralyzing all road transport as well as shutting down the airports help the penniless and jobless, most of whom have no skills a prospective employer might find relevant? Perhaps it would for a while if it led to a huge transfer of income from the rest of the population to those at the bottom of the economic heap, but the end result of that would be to impoverish virtually everybody, reducing most of Argentina to the level of its most wretched parts.
Those who back the pickets — do the piqueteros suspect that the name they have adopted is yet another tribute to “globalization?” — say that money or, even better, well-paying jobs and plenty of opportunities should be given to middle-class folk as well, but it is hard to believe that they really think that would be possible. Here inequality is not just a matter of a few hundred fat cats confronting millions of outcasts, it also has to do with the attempt by a huge middle class to maintain a way of life that is no longer viable: any more egalitarian arrangement would require a great many people to give ground. The populist pretence that it is merely a question of levelling up makes no sense.
Rather more sinister than the statements of well-heeled politicians worried about their image and those intellectuals who like to combine running with the poverty-stricken fox and hunting with the bourgeois hounds are the activities of those individuals who calculate that middle-class fear of the down-and-outs can be put to good use. They have already found it all too easy to convince their compatriots that Fernando de la Rúa’s government is so pathetically weak and indecisive it would be quite unable to handle a bout of serious unrest. Should things start to get really unpleasant, they could demand its replacement by a far tougher administration, repeating in a more thorough fashion the manoeuvre that led to Domingo Cavallo taking over the management of the economy. Had the “progressive” wing of the Alliance supported the card-carrying Radical Ricardo López Murphy, there would have been no need to bring in the superstar of Carlos Menem’s first term, but faced with the choice between governing the country and moving back into opposition, it opted for the easiest course.
How would the Radical and Frepasoite progressives react if asked to choose between making a show of force and letting the country sink into anarchy? In much the same way, no doubt. Many would give free play to their indignation by cursing De la Rúa for his inhuman cruelty and accusing him of violating every law on the books. Should he finally decide to quit, they would then congratulate themselves on their own high-mindedness without asking themselves whether it were truly wise of them to leave the door open so someone like Ruckauf, who would arrive accompanied by many who made the Process what it was, could take his place and the backlash against troublemakers of all kinds could start in deadly earnest against a climate of economic panic which by then would be even worse than it was a quarter of a century ago.
This is a gloomy scenario, but even if, as at times seems quite feasible, what is in store for us is economic collapse and a dictatorship with some democratic trappings, that would not mean the end of Argentina as such, only the demise of the kind of country that until not so long ago most people here and abroad assumed would soon surmount its basic problems to become a highly respectable and on the whole enviable member of the international community. Were large regions dominated by people of a particular ethnic group or religious persuasion, a breakup would be fairly likely, and although it is conceivable that if the worst comes to the worst secessionist movements could arise in Patagonia or even Buenos Aires, as yet there are few signs that this may be about to happen. Even so, the urge to throw in the towel by clinging to the United States is clearly behind much talk about the rival merits of “dollarization” or the Mercosur, while emigration offers a tempting “solution” to those with the right abilities or connections.
Sanguinetti thinks Argentina could get back on its feet soon enough if only it came to terms with its true situation because it has the necessary “human capital” and a great many “centres” or “focal-points” of modernity. No doubt he is right. All the ingredients for a vigorous and decent society are there. What is lacking is the ability to mix them properly. Perhaps that will be found before it is too late, though the country may have to be put through the wringer a couple of times more before the fanciful old illusions have been squeezed out and it can finally start moving ahead on a course which holds fewer dangers than can be seen crowding the immediate future right now.
----------------------------


I went down there to talk him into leaving as I did, but he just won't listen to me. The Goverment canceled his concealed weapon permit -from most civilians actually-, his wife is in her 8th month of pregnancy and the #@$ won't listen to me!
I will stay here one more week, and then I will return, I just hope I can talk him into reason, this place is going to explode before the year ends.

Andrew

[asmith]

Andrew,

I commend you for being such a great friend to Joaco. I think a lot of us have been dropping hints for him to get out of there. I know I have. He just keeps posting that d@mn picture of him sitting by the beach enjoying a drink. I really don't know how we can help other than plead. It is ultimately his decision. As bad as things are down their, I only hope that his paternal instincts will take over and over ride his desire to stay there.

Joaco,
I know that you will read this. I would rather drive 1000+ miles to reach a beach than live my life in fear for my families and my own safety. It is a great time to buy a home right now here in the US. The job market is tight, but you are a smart guy and I think you would be able to get a job without too much trouble. Remember how cheap reef stuff is here in the US? Please listen to your friend Andrew, as well as your friends here at Reefland. We are all concerned about your safety. Heck. You can even stay at my place for awhile if you have to.

Andrew

[PerryinCA]

I couldn't agree more. Time to exit - stage left like. If not the US I know there are plenty of other great places in the world to raise a family. Just take it away from there before all hell breaks lose (sounds like its already there). Another amazingly beautiful place to look at is North New South Wales/Southern Queensland. That area is awesome! I'm moving out that way in a few years, we could hook up and trade frags.

Really though, I don't think Andrew would come here of all places if he wasn't really worried. Maybe its time to really consider it. But, you know your situation alot better than us, so I'm sure you will make the right choice.

Good Luck down there!
-Perry

[Andrew007]

Thanks guys, yes, I am REALLY worried. In case you didn't know, I left the country after getting shot twice on the chest with a .45 My bodyguard got hit too. But the body armor saved us. At least we sent those b*stards six feet below surface: Andrew 2 - b*stards 0

If you think I'm exagerating, check this out:

---------------------------
Two days ago:

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/01/11/14/dg_351189.asp

Caravana delictiva

-Emprendieron un raid en tres autos y tomaron a seis rehenes desde San Isidro hasta Núñez, en dos horas los pasearon y les robaron todo.
-La nueva modalidad adoptada es tomar al conductor junto con el vehículo.
-Cruzaron varias jurisdicciones y nadie los detuvo
-Se llevaron tarjetas y efectivo



La noche estaba fresca tras el chubasco que puso fin a la tarde. Una pareja y un amigo, en un Renault Clio, circulaban por una calle de La Horqueta, en San Isidro. Eran las 20.45 de anteayer y llegaban a tiempo a la casa de otra amiga, que festejaba su cumpleaños. Nunca entraron. Y lo que se prenunciaba como una noche de festejos terminó como una verdadera pesadilla, como en una película filmada en una secuencia única, pero con numerosos avatares. A esa hora comenzó un nuevo episodio de inseguridad bonaerense: un raid delictivo protagonizado por cuatro delincuentes que, con la situación bajo pleno control, se las arreglaron para robar tres autos, mantener a seis personas como rehenes, robarles todo el dinero, vaciarles las cuentas en cajeros automáticos, saquear la casa de una de las víctimas y, finalmente, abandonar a todos, afortunadamente sanos y a salvo. Fueron, en definitiva, dos horas de delitos encadenados que comenzaron en San Isidro y terminaron en el barrio porteño de Núñez, con los rehenes en una estación de servicio, frente a la Escuela de Mecánica de la Armada, en busca de un teléfono público para pedir auxilio a la policía. No hubo lesionados, pero tampoco ladrones presos: los cuatro delincuentes lograron evadir cualquier control policial, pese a haber pasado por varias jurisdicciones de seguridad de dos distritos, bajo el control de las policías Federal y bonaerense. Fuentes policiales confiaron que, hasta anoche, eran dos las seccionales de la Policía Federal que instruían actuaciones por la cadena de robos: las comisarías 51a. y 35a. Pero no se descartaba que, desde hoy, también la comisaría 9a., de La Horqueta, debiese intervenir en la investigación. La policía no suministró la identidad de los damnificados, por orden de la jueza María Angélica Crotto. No obstante, fuentes de la investigación relataron a LA NACION, paso a paso, las alternativas del espectacular raid. El primer objetivo de los delincuentes fue el Clio. Los tres ocupantes del Renault declararon que antes de llegar a la casa de su amiga en Eliseo Reclus al 1700 les cruzó el paso un BMW color azul. Antes de darse cuenta de qué sucedía, cuatro hombres los encañonaron. Uno de los ladrones se subió al Clio y obligó a una de las víctimas a conducir. El resto de la banda los seguía en un automóvil blanco, del que el trío asaltado no pudo dar más señas. Sólo pudieron precisar que a poco de comenzado el trayecto con rumbo desconocido desapareció el BMW. Dentro del vehículo, la pareja y su amigo fueron despojados de todo el dinero que llevaban encima, además de las tarjetas de crédito y las de extracción electrónica bancaria. En la Capital, ambos autos se internaron en la zona residencial de Núñez. En Ramsay y Juramento, el trío del Clio recibiría a un nuevo compañero de desventuras: los delincuentes sorprendieron al conductor de un Honda Accord y lo sumaron a su lista de rehenes. Para entonces, la caravana se reducía al Clio y al Honda. Pero no pasaría mucho hasta crecer en número. A las pocas cuadras, en Leopoldo Basavilbaso al 100, los delincuentes avizoraron una nueva víctima: otro BMW, ocupado por un médico y su hija, ambos a punto de bajar en la puerta de su casa. Así, los autos robados ya eran tres, y los rehenes, seis. El médico fue el que se llevó la peor parte: los ladrones entraron en su vivienda; allí encontraron más dinero y valiosas joyas. El profesional logró que su hija fuese liberada allí, aunque a cambio de permanecer él mismo como rehén, con los otros. Primero, los ladrones se deshicieron del Honda Accord, aunque no de su propietario, en Libertador al 8000. A sólo una cuadra quedó el Renault Clio. Unos metros después, los cinco rehenes eran dejados en la calle, el cuarteto criminal escapaba a toda velocidad, hacia el Norte, en el BMW del médico. Todo terminó en la estación de servicio Shell, frente a la ESMA, casi a las 23, cuando una de las víctimas llamó al Comando Radioeléctrico de la Federal.




Criminal Caravan

-They began a raid in three cars and took six hostages.
-From San Isidro to Núñez, in two hours they drove them around and stole everything from them.
-The new adopted modality is to take the driver together with the vehicle
-They crossed several jurisdictions and nobody stopped them
-They took credit cards and cash.


The night was fresh after the shower that ended in the afternoon. A couple and a friend, in a Renault Clio, were driving to a street in the neighborhood of La Horqueta, in San Isidro. It was yesterday at 8.45 pm, they arrived on time at the house of another friend that celebrated her birthday. They never entered. And that night what was going to be a celebration ended like a true nightmare, like in a movie filmed in an unique sequence, but with numerous changes.
At that time a new episode of insecurity in Buenos Aires began:
a criminal raid played by four criminals that, with the situation under full control, managed to steal three cars, to keep six people as hostages, to steal them all the money, to empty them the bills in automatic cashiers, to plunder the house of one of the victims and, finally, to abandon all, fortunately healthy and safe. They were, at the end, two hours of chained crimes that began in San Isidro and finished in the Buenos Aires neighborhood of Núñez, with the hostages in a gas station, in front of the School of Mechanics of the Navy, in search of a public telephone to call the Police for help. Nobody was injured: the four criminals were able to avoid any police control, in spite of having gone by several security jurisdictions and two districts, under the control of the Federal and Buenos Aires Police. Police sources said that until last night, two sectionals of the Federal Police were instructed tio investigate the chain of robberies: the 51st and 35th Police stations. But it was not discarded that, from today, also the 9th Police station, of La Horqueta, should take part in the investigation. The police didn't give the identity of those affected, under judge's order Angelica María Crotto. Nevertheless, sources of the investigation related to THE NATION, step by step, the details of the spectacular raid. The first objective of the criminals was the Clio. The three occupants of the Renault declared that before arriving at their friend's house in Eliseo Reclus at the 1700 a blue BMW cut their way. Before realizing what happened, four men pointed their guns at them. One of the thieves got in the Clio and forced one of the victims to drive. The rest of the band followed them in a white car, of which the assaulted trio could not give more details. They could only say that shortly after the raid started with unknown route, the BMW disappeared. Inside the vehicle, the couple and their friend were robbed of all the money that they had on them, besides the credit cards and those for bank electronic extraction. In the Capital, both cars went into in the residential area of Núñez. In Ramsay and Juramento, the trio of the Clio would receive a new partner of misfortunes: the criminals surprised the driver of a Honda Accord and added him to their list of hostages. By then, the caravan decreased to the Clio and the Honda. But it would not be long until they grew in number. A few blocks away, in Leopoldo Basavilbaso at the 100, the criminals spotted a new victim: another BMW, occupied by a doctor and his daughter, both about to get in their home. This way, the cars stolen were already three, and the hostages, six. The doctor was the one that took the worst part: the thieves entered his house; there they found more money and valuable jewels. The professional talked them into liberating his daughter there, although in exchange for him being the hostage, with the other ones. First, the thieves got rid of the Honda Accord, although not of its owner, in Libertador at the 8000. The Renault Clio was just a block away. Some meters later, the five hostages were left in the street, the criminal quartet escaped at full speed, toward the North, in the doctor's BMW. Everything finished in the Shell gas station, in front of the ESMA, almost at 11 pm, when one of the victims called the Federal Police.
--------------------------------


Sounds familiar? the raid, the BMWs...?



Another one, this is kind of funny if you try to picture it in your mind, but sadly it is true:

-------------------------
Ten days ago:

http://www.clarin.com.ar/diario/2001-11-03/s-05801.htm

Tiró granadas a la Policía para evitar el arresto, pero lo mataron a balazos

-Fue en José León Suárez, en una zona de galpones y sin testigos
-Un joven salió corriendo cuando vio un patrullero
-Hubo un tiroteo y el sospechoso terminó tirando granadas
-Le secuestraron dos kilos de cocaina.
Cuando sus compañeros vieron que se acercaba un patrullero, arrancaron el auto y lo abandonaron. El joven, de unos 17 años, quedó solo en la esquina de Estrada y Avenida Márquez -en José León Suárez- con una bolsa llena de cocaína y cuatro granadas. Decidió correr.

El adolescente se resistió cuanto pudo al arresto. Primero se tiroteó con los policías. El iba a pie y sus perseguidores en un patrullero. Luego, herido, tomó por una calle de tierra y allí los enfrentó, sin vecinos a la vista, en una zona de galpones. Una a una les arrojó las cuatro granadas que llevaba bajo el brazo en una bolsa negra de residuos. Finalmente lo mataron de cuatro balazos.

Fue ayer, cerca de la 1.30 de la madrugada. Tres policías que iban en una camioneta del Comando de Patrullas de San Martín -por Márquez hacia Boulogne- vieron algo que, según su relato, les llamó la atención: desde un Ford Focus gris con vidrios polarizados unos hombres hablaban con un joven que estaba parado en la vereda. Comenzaron a acercarse al Ford, pero éste arrancó y se fue a toda velocidad. Los policías decidieron perseguir al único sospechoso que había quedado y que, al verlos, había comenzado a correr.

"Durante unas cuadras hubo un tiroteo en el que los policías hirieron al joven. Este, a su vez, disparó tres veces contra ellos con una pistola calibre 45 y rastrilló el parabrisas de la camioneta", confió a Clarín una fuente judicial.

Herido, tomó por una calle de tierra llena de galpones. Para ese entonces otro patrullero había llegado al lugar. Entonces empezó a usar las granadas que llevaba en la bolsa. Con la primera tuvo puntería y le dio a una camioneta policial. Los agentes que iban en ella se bajaron rápidamente pero la granada no explotó.

Antes de derrumbarse contra una pared, el joven sacó una segunda granada de la bolsa y la tiró. Esta sí explotó, cerca de los patrulleros, pero no hirió a nadie.

Para ese entonces, a la zona ya había llegado un tercer auto policial con el comisario inspector Lucas Aiello, jefe del Comando de Patrullas de San Martín. El adolescente estaba quieto en el piso, apoyado sobre el paredón. Los policías pensaron que ya no era peligroso. Creyeron que estaba desmayado o muerto.

Pero mientras el grupo de oficiales y suboficiales comentaba lo ocurrido con su jefe, y esperaban que llegara una ambulancia, el joven se incorporó nuevamente y con una tercer granada en su mano.

Aiello fue el unico que lo vio. "Calmate", le gritó al chico, que no llegó a arrojar nada. Se desplomo otra vez dejando caer la granada a pocos metros de él. Explotó y a esa altura ya todos lo daban por muerto.

Uno de los oficiales decidió acercarse a lo que ya consideraban "el cuerpo", pero se llevó una sorpresa. En la bolsa quedaba una granada más y el joven decidió usarla. Con mucha dificultad se preparó para tirarla. Según el parte oficial, el policia fue más rapido. Levantó su arma y le disparó cuatro tiros.

"El malviviente murió en posición de oración maometana", dice el parte que la Policia le giró al fiscal Nr° 1 de San Marín, Hernán Córdoba. En la bolsa que quedó al lado del cuerpo se encontraron casi dos kilos de cocaína compactada en forma de horma de queso.

Recién a las 3, 30 de la madrugada los expertos en explosivos desactivaron totalmente las dos granadas que no habían explotado. Descubrieron que en el interior de la espoleta les faltaba una parte del mecanismo. Más tarde las pericias determinaron que eran FMK-2, una granada de Fabricaciones Militares y que las que sí habían explotado eran de origen español.

Hasta ayer a la tarde ningún familiar se había presentado a reclamar el cuerpo del joven. En sus ropas -pantalón de gimnasia negro, buzo azul- no se encontró ningún documento que acreditara su identidad.

Sólo sus huellas dactilares podrán decir de quién se trataba, su edad exacta y si alguna vez había entrado a una comisaría. Por lo pronto la historia de su muerte tiene una sola versión, la policial. En el lugar del enfrentamiento, aclara el parte, no había testigos.



He threw grenades at the Police to avoid the arrest, but they shot him dead:

It was in José León Suárez, in a warehouse area and without witnesses
-a teenager run away when he saw a patrol car
-There was a shooting and the suspect finished throwing grenades
-They found two kilos of cocaine on him.

When his partners saw that a polica car was getting close, they started the car and abandoned him. The teenager, some 17 years old, was alone in the corner of Estrada and Avenida Márquez -in José León Suárez - with a bag full with cocaine and four hand grenades. He decided to run.

The adolescent resisted as much as he could to the arrest. First shot at the policemen. He escaped on foot and their pursuers in a patrol car. Then, wounded, he run for an earth street and there they faced him, without neighbors visible, in a warehouse area. He threw at them the four grenades that he had under the arm in a black bag of residuals. Finally they killed him with four shots.

It was yesterday, near the 1.30 am. Three policemen that went in a van of the Patrol Command San Martin -for Márquez toward Boulogne - saw something that, according to their story, got their attention: from a gray Ford Focus with tinted windows some men spoke with a teenager that was standing on the sidewalk. The police began to come closer to the Ford, but they started the car left at full speed. The policemen decided to pursue the only suspect that was left, when seeing him, he begun to run.

"During some blocks there was a shooting in which the policemen hurt the youth. He, in turn, shot three times against them with a .45 gun and it raked the windshield of the van", a judicial source said.

Wounded, he run for an earth street full with warehouses. Then another patrol car arrived to the place. Then he began to use the grenades that he had in the bag. With the first one he hit a police van. The agents that were in it descended quickly but the grenade didn't explode.

Before collapsing against a wall, the youth took out a second grenade of the bag and he threw it. This one did explode, near the police officers, but it didn't hurt anybody.

By then, a third police car had already arrived a the area with the commissary inspector Lucas Aiello, boss of the Patrol Command of San Martin. The adolescent was still in the floor, leaning on the wall. The policemen thought that he was no longer dangerous. They believed that he fainted or was dead.

But while the group of officials commented about what happened with their boss, and they were waiting for an ambulance, the youth incorporated again and with a third grenade in its hand.

Aiello was the only one that saw it. "Calm down", he screamed to the boy that didn't end up throwing anything. He fell another time allowing and the grenade fell a few meters away of him. It exploded and by then everyone thought he was dead.

One of the officials decided to come closer to what he already considered “the body", but he got a surprise. In the bag there was one more grenade and the youth decided to use it. With a lot of difficulty he got ready to throw it. According to the official part, the policeman was quicker. He lifted his weapon and shot him four times.

"The criminal died in position of Mohamed prayer", so says the part that the Police sent the fiscal Nr° 1 of San Marín, Hernán Córdoba. In the bag that was beside the body there were almost two kilos of cocaine compacted in form of cheese molds.

At 3.30 am the experts in explosives disabled the two grenades that had not exploded. They discovered that inside the fuse they lacked a part of the mechanism. Later the experts determined that they were FMK-2, a grenade of Argentine Military Productions and that those that did explode were of Spanish origin.

Until yesterday an afternoon no relative showed up to claim the youth's body. He had no document that credited his identity.

Figerprints are being taken. For the time being the history of his death has a single version, the police one. In the place of the confrontation, there were no witnesses.
-------------------


Damn guy was immortal!!!
read between lines:

-cops here are not very bright guys
-criminal teenagers carry hand grenades and .45s
-argentine made hand grenades dont work -sometimes cops guns dont work either-
-when cops 'make justice' there are no witnesses


I know J had plans to move to Germany if things got worse, he has family there...but how bad is he expecting the whole thing to be????
Sorry if I post here and this is not the place to do it, but I think maybe exposing what is going on in this sh*thole-forgotten-by-mankind will force him to talk about it. I know for sure he doesnt mind me doing it, but he pisses me off by ignoring what I tell him. I honestly dont know what the heck he is waiting for.

Andrew