Politically correct U.S. History?

Aragorn · 01-30-2002, 12:45 AM

Try this again. I accidentally posted in the wrong forum. Much better

Anyway, what do ya think of this one?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...8-81903832.htm

wgscott · 01-30-2002, 01:13 AM

"ÊSome states like Virginia and Indiana also don't include the Pilgrims in their standards."

Having lived in Indiana I can assure you it is not a bastion of the "politically correct" trendie leftists.

Anyway I think the case for abject stupidity is pretty strong. And here I thought I was pushing credibility by putting a diaper on my head sidewise and getting my 2 year old to say "pilgrim hat."

**Ninong** · 01-30-2002, 08:34 AM

I feel sorry for the poor textbook publishers. It's bad enough that they have to try to reconcile the views of the California and Texas state textbook review boards, now they have to worry about New Jersey and Indiana, too! Usually they try to make sure they are in compliance with California since California is the largest (and usually most progressive) state. This normally works out OK until they get to Texas. For some reason, it seems like the Texans must read the California standards and then deliberately adopt something exactly opposite.

What the publishers are trying to do is have a single text that meets all the requirements of the various states without including something that is specifically banned in one of them. Their biggest headache is in the field of science texts. Things that are required to be included in California are specifically banned in Texas.

If you want to see revisionist history at its worst (best ?), just take a look at Japan. It is only in the past couple of years that they have begun to question the way their school history texts treat WWII. Unlike Germany, which renounced it's wartime history, Japan continues to justify theirs as a struggle against European and American colonialism in their sphere of influence. There are no references to Nanking or to any other embarrassing episodes and their military aggression is portrayed as liberation of territories occupied by British, Dutch and American colonial powers.

Ninong

Iron Crab · 02-02-2002, 02:02 PM

I've been seeing this sort of thing for the last 13 yrs. My kids go to a private school where the teachers aren't bound by the politically correct warriors or the ACLU. There has been and still is a war on anyone in our history that had a strong Christian belief and used that belief in the founding of our country.

"...We even had to pass a law - pass a special law in the Congress just a few weeks ago - to allow student prayer groups the same access to school rooms after classes that a Young Marist Society, for example, would already enjoy with no opposition..."

Ronald Reagan, 8/23/84

The ACLU fought hard against that law. The same ACLU that goes to war for the Klan and the Nazis.

Caesar Augustus · 02-03-2002, 11:41 AM

This whole PC phase is going a bit too far. I am a history major and am ashamed at New Jersey's foolishness. History cannot be rewritten it simply is. You can't change it in a text book just to be PC. I mean look at this logically, did one human being in the revolutionary war call it the revolutionary conflict?? As for Washington and Jefferson are you serious!?! Without these men there would be no United States. I realize that is bold but I would feel confident in debating the statment. Bottom line is Political Correctness needs to take a back seat to what is right.
Keep the faith,
Napoleon

**Ninong** · 02-03-2002, 12:37 PM

The foolishness in New Jersey cannot possibly compete with the foolishness in Baton Rouge. You have no idea what laws are proposed here. At least half of them would be a violation of the separation of church and state if they were to actually pass. I wonder if Louisiana is the only state that officially has two different forms of marriage? Covenant Marriage being the new kid on the block.

Ninong

P.S. -- We still have legalized cockfighting. That comes up for discussion every session but the good ole boys consider it part of their religion. Almost.

Iron Crab · 02-03-2002, 01:19 PM

The "Separation of Church and State" phrase is just a fancy way of saying "the new witch hunt".
The only reason that all our leaders in history are being phased out is that how they set up this country, what they said and believed does not mix with the New York Supreme Court ruling of 1962 that started all this.
But hey, we had it all wrong the first 180 yrs of our history. Good thing we were straightened out. If only someone could have explained to our founding fathers what they were writing and talking about we wouldn't be here now.

Covenant marrige? Never heard of that one.

**Ninong** · 02-03-2002, 01:55 PM

Louisiana has two forms of marriage: regular marriage and covenant marriage. This makes for some interesting prenuptial conversations when one party wants a regular marriage and the other wants a covenant marriage. "Whatsa matta? You don't love me enough?"

If it were left up to some of our state legislators, we would be a theocracy by now. Louisiana would like to outlaw divorce but they can't seem to get that one through for some reason. Just last week the Pope warned all God's lawyers and judges that it was their moral duty to refuse to accept divorce cases. The only progressive thing I have seen out of the Vatican lately is the acknowledgment by the Pope of the validity of the theory of evolution. That and the fact that he rescinded Galileo's conviction from the 17th century. They needed time to review it. At least that's better than his declaration in 1999 when he declared that anyone who gave up drinking and smoking in the millennial year 2000 would have time taken off their stay in purgatory. At least he didn't say it was tied to the amount of your contribution like the good old days.

LOUISIANA COVENANT MARRIAGE ACT

CONTRACTING A COVENANT MARRIAGE

The couple who chooses to enter into a "Covenant Marriage" agrees to be bound by two serious limitations on obtaining a divorce or separation. These limitations, that do not apply to other couples married in Louisiana, are as follows:

1. The couple legally agrees to seek marital counseling if problems develop during the marriage; and

2. The couple can only seek a divorce or legal separation for limited reasons, as explained herein.

DECLARATION OF INTENT

In order to enter into a Covenant Marriage, the couple must sign a recitation that provides:

* A marriage is an agreement to live together as husband and wife forever;

* The parties have chosen each other carefully and disclosed to each other "everything

which could adversely affect" the decision to marry;

* The parties have received premarital counseling;

* A commitment that if the parties experience marital difficulties they commit to take

all reasonable efforts to preserve their marriage, including marital counseling; and

* The couple must also obtain premarital counseling from a priest, minister, rabbi or

similar clergyperson of any religious sect or a marriage counselor.

After discussing the meaning of a Covenant Marriage with a counselor, the couple must also sign, together with an attestation by the counselor, a notarized affidavit to the effect that the counselor has discussed with them:

* The seriousness of a Covenant Marriage;

* The commitment to the marriage is for life;

* The obligation of the couple to seek marital counseling if problems arise in their marriage; and

* The exclusive grounds for divorce or legal separation.

The two documents which comprise the Declaration of Intent - the recitation and the affidavit with attestation - must be presented to the official who issues the marriage license with the couple's application for a marriage license.

LEGAL SEPARATION IN A COVENANT MARRIAGE

In order to obtain a legal separation (which is not a divorce and therefore does not end the marriage), a spouse to a Covenant Marriage must first obtain counseling and then must prove:

* Adultery by the other spouse;

* Commission of a felony by the other spouse and a sentence of imprisonment at hard labor or death:

* Abandonment by the other spouse for one year;

* Physical or sexual abuse of the spouse or of a child of either spouse;

* The spouses have lived separate and apart for two years; or

* Habitual intemperance (for example, alcohol or drug abuse), cruel treatment, or severe ill treatment by the other spouse.

DIVORCE IN A COVENANT MARRIAGE

A marriage that is not a Covenant Marriage may be ended by divorce more easily than a covenant Marriage. In a marriage that is not a Covenant Marriage, a spouse may get a divorce for adultery by the other spouse, conviction of a felony by the other spouse and his or her imprisonment at hard labor or death, or by proof that the spouses have lived separate and apart for six months before or after filing for divorce.

In a Covenant Marriage a spouse may get a divorce only after receiving counseling and may only get a divorce for the following reasons:

* Adultery by the other spouse;

* Commission of a felony by the other spouse and sentence of imprisonment at hard labor or death:

* Abandonment by the other spouse for one year;

* Physical or sexual abuse of the spouse or of a child of either spouse;

* The spouses have lived separate and apart for two years; or

* The spouses are judicially or legally separated and have lived separate and apart since the legal separation for:

(a) One year and six months if there is a minor child or children of the marriage;

(b) One year if the separation was granted for abuse of a child of either spouse;

(c) One year in all other cases.

A NOTE TO PRESENTLY MARRIED COUPLES:

Couples who are already married may execute a declaration of intent to designate their marriage a Covenant Marriage. They must sign a recitation and an affidavit similar to those described here, after receiving counseling. The counselor must attest to the counseling. This intent to designate their marriage a Covenant Marriage must be filed with the official who issued their marriage license and with whom the marriage certificate of the couple is filed.

If the couple was married outside of Louisiana, a copy of their marriage certificate, with the declaration of intent, shall be filed with the officer who issues marriage licenses in the parish of the couple's domicile.

Ninong

P.S. -- The Catholic Church is pushing Covenant Marriage laws. Don't know why they are concerned since they don't recognize divorce anyway.

**Ninong** · 02-03-2002, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Iron Crab:

"...We even had to pass a law - pass a special law in the Congress just a few weeks ago - to allow student prayer groups the same access to school rooms after classes that a Young Marist Society, for example, would already enjoy with no opposition..."

Ronald Reagan, 8/23/84

Are you sure Ronnie said that?

A Marist Society would be a group of people devoted to the Virgin Mary.

Ninong

Iron Crab · 02-05-2002, 06:42 PM

Hi Ninong,
Wow, you must love to type!
I think I understand what they are trying to do but this is ridiculous. I understand your secound post on this thread. This is too far out there.
Thanks for taking the time on this.
***************************
Yeah, Ronnie said that.
This is what makes this country so much fun. It was founded by a bunch of God fearing, Bible reading, white Christian men and it worked. Just this alone drives liberals bonkers

I am a little surprised at your attitude about his statement. After all, didn't Louisiana proclaim Thanksgiving week - Christain Heritage Week in the early 90's?

Bill

**Ninong** · 02-05-2002, 07:35 PM

Iron,

I didn't actually type all of that stuff, I pasted it. Even at 90 wpm, which is about my typing rate, it would have taken too long.

Are you sure Ronnie didn't say "Young Marxist Society?"

Big difference between a Marist Society and a Marxist Society in Ronnie's eyes. Of course, to me Marxism is simply a failed economic/social structure and has nothing to do with good or evil, theism or atheism.

Nothing that Louisiana proclaims would surprise me. Nothing.

Ninong

Iron Crab · 02-08-2002, 01:43 PM

Hi Ninong. I'm back, finally.
MARXIST!!
My error. I just started to learn to type. Sometimes my fingers aren't in sink with my brain. This week has been a killer between work and home. Not seeing straight. Sorry. Was funny though.

Now that I have a few minutes.
I was wondering. Are you sure that the Church is even involved in this Covenant Marriage thing. Sounds like it is the state- could it be they are getting a little tired of picking up all the pieces after a marriage fails. After all there is child support, PAA orders, dead beat dads and moms, child custody fights, welfare sometimes, and police calls- if it gets bad. Maybe a little preventive contract is what they are looking for. No one has a problem dragging the state in after the fact.
As long as it is kept a choice- it should be up to the couples who agree to it. On that note- I still wouldn't go for it.
As for the Vatican- I pay no attention to that place. Don't even see a need for it.
Bill

**Ninong** · 02-08-2002, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Iron Crab:

I was wondering. Are you sure that the Church is even involved in this Covenant Marriage thing.

Yes, quite sure.

Ninong

01-30-2002, 12:45 AM	#1
Aragorn Governor Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pine Grove, CA USA Posts: 2,064	Politically correct U.S. History? Try this again. I accidentally posted in the wrong forum. Much better Anyway, what do ya think of this one? http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...8-81903832.htm __________________ "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds."

02-02-2002, 02:02 PM	#4
Iron Crab Council Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: N.W. Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 434	I've been seeing this sort of thing for the last 13 yrs. My kids go to a private school where the teachers aren't bound by the politically correct warriors or the ACLU. There has been and still is a war on anyone in our history that had a strong Christian belief and used that belief in the founding of our country. "...We even had to pass a law - pass a special law in the Congress just a few weeks ago - to allow student prayer groups the same access to school rooms after classes that a Young Marist Society, for example, would already enjoy with no opposition..." Ronald Reagan, 8/23/84 The ACLU fought hard against that law. The same ACLU that goes to war for the Klan and the Nazis. Last edited by Iron Crab; 02-02-2002 at 02:04 PM.

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01-30-2002, 01:13 AM	#2
wgscott Governor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: CA, USA Posts: 1,238	"ÊSome states like Virginia and Indiana also don't include the Pilgrims in their standards." Having lived in Indiana I can assure you it is not a bastion of the "politically correct" trendie leftists. Anyway I think the case for abject stupidity is pretty strong. And here I thought I was pushing credibility by putting a diaper on my head sidewise and getting my 2 year old to say "pilgrim hat."

01-30-2002, 08:34 AM	#3
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,733	I feel sorry for the poor textbook publishers. It's bad enough that they have to try to reconcile the views of the California and Texas state textbook review boards, now they have to worry about New Jersey and Indiana, too! Usually they try to make sure they are in compliance with California since California is the largest (and usually most progressive) state. This normally works out OK until they get to Texas. For some reason, it seems like the Texans must read the California standards and then deliberately adopt something exactly opposite. What the publishers are trying to do is have a single text that meets all the requirements of the various states without including something that is specifically banned in one of them. Their biggest headache is in the field of science texts. Things that are required to be included in California are specifically banned in Texas. If you want to see revisionist history at its worst (best ?), just take a look at Japan. It is only in the past couple of years that they have begun to question the way their school history texts treat WWII. Unlike Germany, which renounced it's wartime history, Japan continues to justify theirs as a struggle against European and American colonialism in their sphere of influence. There are no references to Nanking or to any other embarrassing episodes and their military aggression is portrayed as liberation of territories occupied by British, Dutch and American colonial powers. Ninong

02-03-2002, 11:41 AM	#5
Caesar Augustus Mayor Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Birmingham,AL U.S.A. Posts: 980	This whole PC phase is going a bit too far. I am a history major and am ashamed at New Jersey's foolishness. History cannot be rewritten it simply is. You can't change it in a text book just to be PC. I mean look at this logically, did one human being in the revolutionary war call it the revolutionary conflict?? As for Washington and Jefferson are you serious!?! Without these men there would be no United States. I realize that is bold but I would feel confident in debating the statment. Bottom line is Political Correctness needs to take a back seat to what is right. Keep the faith, Napoleon

02-03-2002, 12:37 PM	#6
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,733	The foolishness in New Jersey cannot possibly compete with the foolishness in Baton Rouge. You have no idea what laws are proposed here. At least half of them would be a violation of the separation of church and state if they were to actually pass. I wonder if Louisiana is the only state that officially has two different forms of marriage? Covenant Marriage being the new kid on the block. Ninong P.S. -- We still have legalized cockfighting. That comes up for discussion every session but the good ole boys consider it part of their religion. Almost.

02-03-2002, 01:19 PM	#7
Iron Crab Council Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: N.W. Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 434	The "Separation of Church and State" phrase is just a fancy way of saying "the new witch hunt". The only reason that all our leaders in history are being phased out is that how they set up this country, what they said and believed does not mix with the New York Supreme Court ruling of 1962 that started all this. But hey, we had it all wrong the first 180 yrs of our history. Good thing we were straightened out. If only someone could have explained to our founding fathers what they were writing and talking about we wouldn't be here now. Covenant marrige? Never heard of that one.

02-03-2002, 01:55 PM	#8
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,733	Louisiana has two forms of marriage: regular marriage and covenant marriage. This makes for some interesting prenuptial conversations when one party wants a regular marriage and the other wants a covenant marriage. "Whatsa matta? You don't love me enough?" If it were left up to some of our state legislators, we would be a theocracy by now. Louisiana would like to outlaw divorce but they can't seem to get that one through for some reason. Just last week the Pope warned all God's lawyers and judges that it was their moral duty to refuse to accept divorce cases. The only progressive thing I have seen out of the Vatican lately is the acknowledgment by the Pope of the validity of the theory of evolution. That and the fact that he rescinded Galileo's conviction from the 17th century. They needed time to review it. At least that's better than his declaration in 1999 when he declared that anyone who gave up drinking and smoking in the millennial year 2000 would have time taken off their stay in purgatory. At least he didn't say it was tied to the amount of your contribution like the good old days. LOUISIANA COVENANT MARRIAGE ACT CONTRACTING A COVENANT MARRIAGE The couple who chooses to enter into a "Covenant Marriage" agrees to be bound by two serious limitations on obtaining a divorce or separation. These limitations, that do not apply to other couples married in Louisiana, are as follows: 1. The couple legally agrees to seek marital counseling if problems develop during the marriage; and 2. The couple can only seek a divorce or legal separation for limited reasons, as explained herein. DECLARATION OF INTENT In order to enter into a Covenant Marriage, the couple must sign a recitation that provides: * A marriage is an agreement to live together as husband and wife forever; * The parties have chosen each other carefully and disclosed to each other "everything which could adversely affect" the decision to marry; * The parties have received premarital counseling; * A commitment that if the parties experience marital difficulties they commit to take all reasonable efforts to preserve their marriage, including marital counseling; and * The couple must also obtain premarital counseling from a priest, minister, rabbi or similar clergyperson of any religious sect or a marriage counselor. After discussing the meaning of a Covenant Marriage with a counselor, the couple must also sign, together with an attestation by the counselor, a notarized affidavit to the effect that the counselor has discussed with them: * The seriousness of a Covenant Marriage; * The commitment to the marriage is for life; * The obligation of the couple to seek marital counseling if problems arise in their marriage; and * The exclusive grounds for divorce or legal separation. The two documents which comprise the Declaration of Intent - the recitation and the affidavit with attestation - must be presented to the official who issues the marriage license with the couple's application for a marriage license. LEGAL SEPARATION IN A COVENANT MARRIAGE In order to obtain a legal separation (which is not a divorce and therefore does not end the marriage), a spouse to a Covenant Marriage must first obtain counseling and then must prove: * Adultery by the other spouse; * Commission of a felony by the other spouse and a sentence of imprisonment at hard labor or death: * Abandonment by the other spouse for one year; * Physical or sexual abuse of the spouse or of a child of either spouse; * The spouses have lived separate and apart for two years; or * Habitual intemperance (for example, alcohol or drug abuse), cruel treatment, or severe ill treatment by the other spouse. DIVORCE IN A COVENANT MARRIAGE A marriage that is not a Covenant Marriage may be ended by divorce more easily than a covenant Marriage. In a marriage that is not a Covenant Marriage, a spouse may get a divorce for adultery by the other spouse, conviction of a felony by the other spouse and his or her imprisonment at hard labor or death, or by proof that the spouses have lived separate and apart for six months before or after filing for divorce. In a Covenant Marriage a spouse may get a divorce only after receiving counseling and may only get a divorce for the following reasons: * Adultery by the other spouse; * Commission of a felony by the other spouse and sentence of imprisonment at hard labor or death: * Abandonment by the other spouse for one year; * Physical or sexual abuse of the spouse or of a child of either spouse; * The spouses have lived separate and apart for two years; or * The spouses are judicially or legally separated and have lived separate and apart since the legal separation for: (a) One year and six months if there is a minor child or children of the marriage; (b) One year if the separation was granted for abuse of a child of either spouse; (c) One year in all other cases. A NOTE TO PRESENTLY MARRIED COUPLES: Couples who are already married may execute a declaration of intent to designate their marriage a Covenant Marriage. They must sign a recitation and an affidavit similar to those described here, after receiving counseling. The counselor must attest to the counseling. This intent to designate their marriage a Covenant Marriage must be filed with the official who issued their marriage license and with whom the marriage certificate of the couple is filed. If the couple was married outside of Louisiana, a copy of their marriage certificate, with the declaration of intent, shall be filed with the officer who issues marriage licenses in the parish of the couple's domicile. Ninong P.S. -- The Catholic Church is pushing Covenant Marriage laws. Don't know why they are concerned since they don't recognize divorce anyway.

02-03-2002, 02:54 PM	#9
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,733	Originally posted by Iron Crab: "...We even had to pass a law - pass a special law in the Congress just a few weeks ago - to allow student prayer groups the same access to school rooms after classes that a Young Marist Society, for example, would already enjoy with no opposition..." Ronald Reagan, 8/23/84 Are you sure Ronnie said that? A Marist Society would be a group of people devoted to the Virgin Mary. Ninong

02-05-2002, 06:42 PM	#10
Iron Crab Council Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: N.W. Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 434	Hi Ninong, Wow, you must love to type! I think I understand what they are trying to do but this is ridiculous. I understand your secound post on this thread. This is too far out there. Thanks for taking the time on this. *************************** Yeah, Ronnie said that. This is what makes this country so much fun. It was founded by a bunch of God fearing, Bible reading, white Christian men and it worked. Just this alone drives liberals bonkers I am a little surprised at your attitude about his statement. After all, didn't Louisiana proclaim Thanksgiving week - Christain Heritage Week in the early 90's? Bill

02-05-2002, 07:35 PM	#11
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,733	Iron, I didn't actually type all of that stuff, I pasted it. Even at 90 wpm, which is about my typing rate, it would have taken too long. Are you sure Ronnie didn't say "Young Marxist Society?" Big difference between a Marist Society and a Marxist Society in Ronnie's eyes. Of course, to me Marxism is simply a failed economic/social structure and has nothing to do with good or evil, theism or atheism. Nothing that Louisiana proclaims would surprise me. Nothing. Ninong

02-08-2002, 01:43 PM	#12
Iron Crab Council Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: N.W. Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 434	Hi Ninong. I'm back, finally. MARXIST!! My error. I just started to learn to type. Sometimes my fingers aren't in sink with my brain. This week has been a killer between work and home. Not seeing straight. Sorry. Was funny though. Now that I have a few minutes. I was wondering. Are you sure that the Church is even involved in this Covenant Marriage thing. Sounds like it is the state- could it be they are getting a little tired of picking up all the pieces after a marriage fails. After all there is child support, PAA orders, dead beat dads and moms, child custody fights, welfare sometimes, and police calls- if it gets bad. Maybe a little preventive contract is what they are looking for. No one has a problem dragging the state in after the fact. As long as it is kept a choice- it should be up to the couples who agree to it. On that note- I still wouldn't go for it. As for the Vatican- I pay no attention to that place. Don't even see a need for it. Bill

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02-08-2002, 04:00 PM	#13
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,733	Originally posted by Iron Crab: I was wondering. Are you sure that the Church is even involved in this Covenant Marriage thing. Yes, quite sure. Ninong