[jwtrojan44]

Who has been or currently is involved in the scouting movement? I've been a leader on both a Pack and Troop level for the past 10 years. My oldest son is completeing requirements for his Eagle, and the middle one just received his Arrow of Light and joined the Troop. Any others?

[SomeHairyOldGuy]

I was a scout when I was a kid. I dropped out to play more sports when I was a Life Scout. I was accepted into the Order of the Arrow and Pine Tree. Still kicking myself for dropping out since I was so close to Eagle.
SHOG

[nucleuscracker]

i hate to admit but I'm an eagle scout , also was accepted into Order of the Arrow (anyone else have to sleep on the side of a hill outside?)

I will say that being an Eagle Scout has caught more eyes in interviews than any of my work related experience......

[jwtrojan44]

I hope you REALLY don't hate to admit it. I think it's great that you finished. You're right about the interview thing. I've heard from several people in business, some who were scouts and some who were not, that given two applicants for a job with equal qualifications, they would give preference to one who was an Eagle Scout. The completion of the requirements says a lot about the character and the ability of the individual, more so in terms of their willingness to
complete tasks and be goal oriented. My oldest is also in OA, although not as active as he is with he Troop. He has made many friends through his association, however and still looks forward to the occassional gatherings he can attend.

[wgscott]

I'm an eagle scout. I don't hate to admit it. I have to admit second thoughts about the "Order of the Arrow" however...

[jwtrojan44]

Care to expound on that? Just curious as I've heard that from some other folks as well.

[the_blue_tuna]

What is the " Order of the Arrow "?

[jwtrojan44]

I'd tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. (kidding!) OA is a service faction of the BSA, open to scouts who have attained a certain rank and who have a specified number of days camping. There are three levels and special ceremonies that recognize each one, all done in a Native American theme. Very meaningful when done right. Some scouts are not interested in it, but a lot of those who are inducted get something more out of it than the regular program. There's a lot more to it but I won't bore you with all the details.

[wgscott]

There are basically two things I don't like about it:

1. It is like a secret fraternity in some respects, which I don't think should be permitted in the Scouts.

2. It appropriates Native American traditions including cerimonial rituals. These were adopted at a time when we were sending Indians to prison for participating in such things as the Ghost Dance and Sun Dance, and children were being forcibly separated (aka kidnapped) and taken to boarding schools run by the BIA for the purpose of deprogramming native traditions and language.

So if I had to do it all over again I would refuse induction into the OA, knowing what I now know.

[jwtrojan44]

Keep in mind however that much of scouting tradition is based on Native Culture. Scouting was formed long before anyone gave a damn about being politically correct, and I'm sure there was no intnet on the part of the BSA to degrade Native American beliefs. Actually, the BSA has adopted a more PC approach to OA. They do not allow face paint to be used in ceremonies, and they have changed their logo from the Indian Chief in a war bonnet to that of a simple arrow. Being of NA descent, I can tell you that there are far worse misrepresentations of our culture than those of the BSA, and in fact BSA practices make every effort to show respect and dignity to the culture of the Indians. I routinely participate in various events on both a Pack and Troop level where we use NA themed ceremonies including the use of costumes, drums, rattles, etc..They are very impressive, and the boys, regardless of age are very intent and respectful, and it can serve as a learning experience for them. THey always have questions about the regalia and props, so they want to learn about the significance of these items.
OA dance teams are widely respected, and in a lot of cases equal the skill and costuming of authentic NA dancers. Now if you want to talk about political incorrectness, lets look at the many major league sports teams that use ungodly caricatures of Natives, or the schools who do the same. These are the issues that NA peoples struggle with, as would anyone who's culture is the subject of disrespect. I don't have issues with the OA , as I think they attempt to portray the NA culture with an air of dignity, as it should.

[murchadh]

Eagle scout here as of December 21st. I love hiking in Utah's mountains. I don't know if anyone has heard of Philmont scout ranch, but I went there last summer and am going again this summer with my Grandad. I have not been nominated for OA, but several of my friends have.

-murchadh

[SomeHairyOldGuy]

murchadh,
Congrats on the Eagle!
SHOG

[bahrhoops]

I achieved my Eagle badge in my youth - and it wasn't easy.
I intend on being a merit badge counselor and I need to take the time to get more involved. needless to say I've been quite busy lately.

[jwtrojan44]

Yet another Eagle! Good to hear. I think there are a lot of you guys lurking around out there. Good that you want to continue to be involved and share what you have learned. And welcome to Reefland.

[wgscott]

I went to Philmont.

As for the O of the A, I guess you have to differentiate between "political correctness" and what is just in bad taste.

If in Germany the Scouts dressed up as Jews, conducted cerimonial Bar Mitzvahs and stuff like that, to "honor" a culture that once existed in their land but was largely displaced, there would doubtless be some degree of, well, apprehension..., even if they took the trouble to do it with solomness and respect for the old traditions and adhered to an accurate reconstruction of the old ways.

[jwtrojan44]

I'm not sure I can draw any type of analogy between your scenario and the OA representation of NA culture in their ceremonies. As I stated, there is nothing done in poor taste (at least IMO) in the OA ceremonies. They don't speak in that phony Indian accent, nor do they attempt to mimic any NA religious ceremonies, which are so diverse that the OA likely has no concept of their meaning, significance, or how to even go about replicating them. Your scenario depicts the replication of a solemn religious ceremony by one culture who directly persecuted the culture they are attempting to duplicate. I think one of the fundamental differences is the absence of religious connotations. Now if the BSA began performing ghost dance ceremonies or other sacred rights as part of it's program, you can bet it would be met with very stiff opposition. I sense your feelings about OA and respect your reservations about it. It's not for everyone. I never belonged nor do I care if I'm inducted even as an adult leader, however I don't have issues with the organization from a political or cultural standpoint.
How did you like Philmont? We're thinking about taking our Venture Patrol there next year.