[Caesar Augustus]

Poor WG let me explain. A: the west Wing is a very liberal program Republicans dont watch often. Also, you have the right to believe as you will. However, for you to say that we all need to "realize there is no God" is foolish. You can not prove that there is no God anymore than I can prove that there is. You will play hell trying to prove that nothing times noone=everything to the other 98% of us who believe differently. And, if you truly think the world would be a better place if man's belief in God were to end, and we'd all start loving each other with renewed purpose and vigor...well, I gotta get some of that stuff. It is our belief in something greater than ourselves that helps us to find the good within us. If you would like to talk to people who think that what we do in this world does not matter, there are numerous prisons all over this fine land of ours. Drop by for a visit, they have time to kill. Oh yea, and B: the end of my last post was sarcasim, we'd have about as much luck picking one religion over another as your reply to my post being "By George Napoleon, your right" But just between you and I......I am
Keep the Faith,
Bonaparte

[Reinhold]

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

[wgscott]

Is it just as irrational to hold the belief that there are not 800 pound hot pink rabbits orbiting Jupiter as it is irrational to hold the belief that there are?

Why is belief in God any different?

If the 19 mostly Saudis who hijacked airplanes and committed suicide in their crimes against humanity on Sept 11, 2001, instead were hard-core atheists, do you think they still would have done it? No. They did it because they believed in (their) God. People do terrible things to each other when they irrationally imagine they have God's special blessings. Most wars are religious in origin. Even Hitler thought he was on a mission from God. Even if these people (Hitler, bin Laden) still existed, at least they wouldn't be able to recruit others to their attrocious causes by invoking God.

I think the world would be a much better place if we expunge irrational belief.

My kids have never even been introduced to the concept of God. My guess is when they find out about it they will just look at it with utter confusion. We'll probably have to tell them it is a name for an imaginary playmate or something, but I don't want to discredit imaginary playmates.

[Reinhold]

wgscott--if you seriously think that wars would not happen, that people wouldn't hurt each other, or that inequalities wouldn't exist if there were no religions, I've got some yellow snow I'd like to sell you!

I have spent my adult life working in an ER, and I've seen more of man's inhumanity to man than you can imagine. Never has any of it been done in the name of religion. The biggest problems I see in the world are caused selfishness, testosterone, various psychological pathologies, and chemical dependency/abuse.

[wgscott]

I worked in an ER for 3 weeks. You have my deepest sympathy. At least on the TV show they never managed to project the smell...

I'm sure people will still quite happily maim and kill one another.

I think however it would be a lot harder for nut-cases like Osama bin Laden to get 19 people to committ a suicide/mass murder if they all thought Allah might not exist.

Isn't it at least worth a try?

I think the biggest problems in the world currently have to deal with controlling the energy supply.

[Ninong]

"My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance-but for us, not for God." -- Albert Einstein

[Ninong]

Update on my little tidbit about the California Goppies and their nostalgia for the days before civil rights:

California GOP Vice-Chairman Back released the following statement Saturday: "Upon reflection, I should have been more sensitive regarding issues raised in this piece and not included it in the e-mail," Back said in a statement Saturday. "I regret any pain and offense taken by readers."

Also, I don't know how I missed this little quip from his favorite article on American History but I can see why it might have stirred up resentment among the Yankees. No, not Steinbrenner's.

"It's not hard to believe that history might have taken a better turn," if the South had won the Civil War, the piece said..

If the South were a separate country, it continued, "at least part of North America would still stand for Western culture, Christianity and an appreciation of the differences between ladies and gentlemen."

Gosh, golly, geewhiz! No wonder Trent Lott quit working for a Democrat and ran as a Republican. Those Republican fellers sure do recognize Western Culture when they see it, don't they. Thankgawd that Back guy is from Yuba county and not anywhere closer to the Bay Area. And on top of all that I read that he is considered a "moderate" California Goppie. Maybe we could talk good ole boy David Duke into moving to Yuba county. Hey, wait a minute. Duke is getting ready for his tour of duty in the pokey. But I'm sure it will be a short-lived incarceration in a plush pokey with some of his Goppie pals. He should be out and about in no time at all. I understand his latest book is doing very well in Russia. Seems some of the Russians are nostalgic, too. Bring back the Czar!

[Caesar Augustus]

WG, I would make these points. For every madman that claims he’s working for God you can find one who says there is no God at all, McVeigh etc. And as for the rabbit thing, if I were placing a significant wager that either Man, Roaches, woolly mammoths, slugs and Dinosaurs originated from the same cell or…. that 800 pound hot pink rabbits are orbiting Jupiter at this very moment Well………………My cash is on the rabbits I think the world is a much better place with God here; I would not like to envision one without him.
Keep the Faith,
Napoleon

[Biomanjcs72]

Originally posted by Napoleon (my buddy, really, no joke)

And as for the rabbit thing, if I were placing a significant wager that either Man, Roaches, woolly mammoths, slugs and Dinosaurs originated from the same cell or…. that 800 pound hot pink rabbits are orbiting Jupiter at this very moment Well………………My cash is on the rabbits

Belief in the former, does not preclude belief in GOD, Christ, Jesus,. etc.

I wrestled with this one for a long time. Evolution was/is GOD's tool-

That's all I'll say- (beyond that I need to give you a call inthe first place, just to say hey-)

[Caesar Augustus]

Bio, How are you my friend? I believe in limited evolution but not darwinism. Though I have been called a social darwinist I got your call for new years and I'm sorry I haven't got back to you. I've had a lot on my plate lately. Give me a gingle when you get a chance. I'm thinking about setting the 55 back up. check out my posts in the reef forum.
Keep the faith,
Napoleon

[Biomanjcs72]

Doing well my man, doing well. Got me some new golf sticks for

X-mas, callaway steelhead X-14 irons, (oh yeah, it's on now baby!!! )

I'll try to give you a call soon, I'd love to help set the 55 back up-

[Caesar Augustus]

cool man! I got a taylor made driver myself....sweet Juat give me a ring. Do you think that bleached rock in the basement can be brought back to life?
Napoleon

[Biomanjcs72]

Sweet, I've got taylor made's 1, 3, 5 (all different, Ti1, Ti2, supersteel, respectively) wood. I love them when I hit them right.

Sure, the rock can be brought back to life, we just have to have some actual live rock in there to "seed" it so to speak. It'll take a while, but it'll come back-

[PerryinCA]

Originally posted by Reinhold
The biggest problems I see in the world are caused selfishness, testosterone, various psychological pathologies, and chemical dependency/abuse.

I refuse to get involved in religious desputes any-longer as a self serving exhistentialist, so my comment is off topic...

BUT, I have read two studies that supported elevated estrogen levels in men to be a cause of violent patterns rather than testosterone. I'll take a look at medline when I get a chance and see if I can find one or both of them. That would explain some of the often sensational reports of "roid rage". Many endocrinologists now believe that use of aromatase inhibitors will counteract much of the moodiness that supposedly comes with exogenius testosterone supplementation.

So...test. as a reason for irrational rage is a poor excuse. BUT the things us guys will do to win the favors of a pretty girl is an entirely different subject.

Sorry for any mispellings...typed in a hurry.

-Perry

[Reinhold]

PerryinCA--I think I understand what you are saying. In essence, it's a form of PMS!

[schrocat]

Originally posted by Reinhold
PerryinCA--I think I understand what you are saying. In essence, it's a form of PMS!

Oh my.

[SPasse]

Hi All,

I haven’t had a chance to participate in one of these discussions for a long time.

But Ninong has posted a great framework for me to comment on.

The statement attributed to the 41st. president of the United States that atheists
could not possibly be good citizens in his opinion because this country was founded
on Christian principles is a matter of record.

An inexcusably stupid thing to say:

Here is one of my favorite quotes:

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are severely
crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every
opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

Thomas Jefferson
(Letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787)

So much for our “Fundamentalist” Founding Fathers.

Attorney General Ashcroft is an ordained Pentecostal minister (Assemblies of God), as was his father and his grandfather. He does believe in speaking in tongues and it "happens" on a regular basis at his church in Missouri. Both his father and his grandfather actually had the "gift" themselves. He also believes in the power of healing by laying on of the hands. Both his father and his grandfather claimed that power, too. In fact, his grandfather toured around the country in a beat up Chevy wagon spreading the word, taking his father and his other children on the road with him. It was the family business. He did actually have his father anoint him on the forehead with cooking oil from the kitchen (when his father was still alive) whenever he was sworn in to a new position. He is convinced that Satan resides in calico cats -- I can find that one for you, too, but you can locate it on any search engine by entering "John Ashcroft on calico cats."

All of the above is admittedly very scary.

That leaves us with Mr. Ashcroft's relationship with the NRA and his "whitey white-bread" frame of mind. He is an ardent supporter of the NRA and has made radio ads for them, most recently in endorsing an unsuccessful 1999 referendum that would have allowed Missourians to apply to their county sheriff for permits to carry concealed guns. The campaign was heavily backed by the National Rifle Association. The idea was that if everybody was armed to the teeth, the bad guys would be too afraid to do anything bad. Just like the Old West. Yippee!!

I actually support the NRA and the concealed carry concept. Being a gun owner, ex hunter, and a “card carrying member of the NRA” I also wish separate these issues from his admittedly deplorable positions on racial issues.

His opposition to minority judges is well documented, as is his unorthodox
interview technique. Several former applicants have reported being asked by
Governor Ashcroft about whether they were "faithful to their wives" and about
whether they drank alcoholic beverages. Both of those questions are in violation of
the law, at least I couldn't ask them when I worked in California. And I should know
because I made a few mistakes of my own in interviewing people.

Well, it’s question I can’t imagine asking, but a good principal, as another favorite
quotation of mine is:

“Why would you trust a man that would cheat on their wives”

Harry Truman

“He is opposed to abortion, even in cases of incest or rape.”

I believe that human life begins at conception. Therefore a human being beget out of
a rape or incestuous relationship is no less entitled to “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of
Happiness” than one formed out of any other kind of sexual union. I don’t attribute
this perspective to a Christian perspective, per say just a Humanist one.

In May, 1999, Ashcroft traveled to Bob Jones University in South Carolina to receive an honorary degree. This Christian school in Greenville has a segregationist history and until recently banned interracial dating and marriage. It lost its tax-exempt status in the 1970's because of racial discrimination but was a popular stop for many GOP candidates seeking conservative support. Recent news articles mentioned that Trent Lott filed an amicus curiae brief in support of Bob Jones being allowed to discriminate on the basis of race since it was part of their religious belief. Trent thought they should be allowed to keep their tax-exempt status in spite of their prohibitions against interracial dating and marriage since their positions were based on their Christian beliefs. I kid you not. I can get you a copy of the complete text of the filing, or you can find it easily with any search engine. In the October 1998 edition of Southern Partisan, a South Carolina magazine, Ashcroft said "traditionalists must do more" to defend Confederate President Jefferson Davis and Gens. Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. Granted this is the weakest accusation against him but the code word "traditionalists" is the key part of this little tidbit. Giving interviews to that particular magazine, knowing it's history and subscriber base, is akin to Trent Lott giving the keynote address at the CCC convention (another little problem for Trent that dated back to 1992).

As governor of Missouri, Ashcroft twice vetoed legislation intended to allow the League of Women Voters to register new voters in St. Louis, a Democratic-leaning city. The bills would have implemented the same voter-registration procedures already used in the more heavily Republican areas of the St. Louis suburbs. Ashcroft cited concerns over voter fraud as his rationale for nixing the legislation. But observers claimed that was not the case. "There is no evidence that the fraud feared by the Election Board would take place if outside groups were permitted to sign up voters," the St. Louis Post-Dispatch said in a July 1989 editorial. "Accordingly, the bill ought to become law."

I could go on an on with more little tidbits that reflect the true frame of mind of John
Ashcroft, but I think you get the picture. He managed to squeak through senate
confirmation by a vote of 52-48. I still like the $8600 the Justice Department spent
for those dark blue drapes to "hide the naked statues" behind his podium at press
conferences. At first they insisted that the Attorney General did not order them to
"hide the statues," they were supposedly ordered to provide a backdrop for the TV
cameras. Internal DOJ emails confirmed that they were ordered "to hide the
statues."

All indefensible.

Oh, and in case you were concerned about my comment about Trent Lott "going
too far" in announcing his "support for affirmative action" in his interview with Ed
Gordon on BET-TV, that wasn't my comment, that was the comment of a couple of
his fellow Republican senators. One of them was even offended that he apologized
for his opposition to making Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday a national holiday. He
went too far with his turnaround on that issue, too, in the mind of Don Nickles.

As far as Trent Lott is concerned I can’t believe that he was stupid enough to make
those comments, even if that is what he really thought.

Regards,

Scott

[schrocat]

Originally posted by SPASSE
I believe that human life begins at conception. Therefore a human being beget out of
a rape or incestuous relationship is no less entitled to “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of
Happiness” than one formed out of any other kind of sexual union. I don’t attribute
this perspective to a Christian perspective, per say just a Humanist one.

Spasse,

That is a pure pro human view.

There is nothing humanistic about your perspective.
It does not consider the quality of life.
It does not take the complete picture of pain and suffering of all involved.
It does not consider the woman.

Ok...that's glib humanistic consideration for an unwanted pregancy.
No humanist I know would come to the same conclusions you have on forcing rape and incest victims to carry an unwanted life to term.

You perceive the fetus resulting from a rape to be life, whereas the victim may likely perceive the fetus to be a manifestation of the violent crime.

I'll tell you the same thing I've told every man who ever expressed an opinion to me (pro or con) regarding abortion.

"If you don't approve of them...don't get one."

[PerryinCA]

Schrocat....that's awefull libertarian of you. I totally concur.

-P

[SPasse]

Schrocat,

Humanist was a bad choice of words. “Pro-Human” works for me.

"If you don't approve of them...don't get one."

I think I will pass on a response.

This is a subject where it is nearly impossible for me (someone who writes for a living) to “express my opinion in a manner conducive to further constructive dialog."

Regards,

Scott