[wgscott]

California orders mass arrests of Muslim foreigners

By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles

20 December 2002

Hundreds of Middle Eastern and North African men, some just 16, have been hauled into custody across southern California in the past few days, enraging civil liberties groups and drawing comparisons with the internment of tens of thousands of Japanese Americans during the Second World War.

The round-ups in Los Angeles, San Diego and suburban Orange County were part of a counter-terrorism initiative by the Bush administration, requiring men and teenagers from specific countries to register with the immigration authorities and have their fingerprints taken. Several thousand citizens of Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Sudan – many of them accompanied by lawyers – willingly came forward across southern California to meet Monday's deadline.

However, as many as a quarter of them – estimates vary between 500 and 1,000 people – were arrested on the basis of apparently minor visa violations and herded into jail cells under threat of deportation.

Lawyers reported that some detainees were forced to stand up all night for lack of room, that some were placed in shackles, and others were hosed down with cold water before being thrown into unheated cells. They said the numbers were so high that authorities were talking about transferring several hundred detainees to Arizona to await immigration hearings and deportation orders.

Both the lawyers and the southern California chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union denounced the round-up as an outrage that did not advance the fight against terrorism one inch and very possibly hindered it. At a public demonstration in Los Angeles on Wednesday, at least 3,000 protesters waved signs saying "What next? Concentration camps?" and "Detain terrorists, not innocent immigrants".

"All of our fundamental civil rights have been violated by these actions," one lawyer, Ban al-Wardi, told the Los Angeles Times after 14 of her 20 clients were arrested during the registration process. "I don't know how far this is going to go before people start speaking up. This is a very dangerous precedent we are setting. What's to stop Americans from being treated like this when they travel overseas?"

In one case, a 16-year-old boy was ripped from his mother's arms and told he would never return home. The mother is a legal resident married to an American citizen. Many of the detainees came from Los Angeles' large Iranian Jewish population and are highly unlikely to have any link to militant Islamic guerrilla groups.

Immigration officials said they would not discuss numbers but did not dispute one report putting the number of detainees at between 500 and 700. They acknowledged anyone with a slight visa irregularity was subject to arrest, regardless of personal histories. The detainees' lawyers challenged the government to produce any evidence of criminal behaviour among their clients, let alone a link to international terrorist groups.

The registration scheme was conceived by President Bush's ultra-conservative Attorney General, John Ashcroft, and had already come under criticism for what opponents call blatant discrimination.

[Ninong]

Ashcroft is even dumber than I thought. This was a terrible PR blunder.

He issued an order requiring male non-citizen immigrants and visitors from 18 Arab and Muslim countries to be interviewed, photographed, fingerprinted and registered by federal authorities. Those who fail to comply face criminal charges and immediate expulsion from the country. Then when they show up to be interviewed, photographed and fingerprinted, he has hundreds of them arrested. In most cases they were waiting for the INS to get around to reviewing their request for visa extensions, etc. It has always been the policy of the U.S. government to not expel someone who has applied for an extension but not yet received an answer. The government is notoriously slow in processing immigration paperwork.

The case of the 16-yr-old Iranian boy whose mother brought him down to comply with the new rules is absurd. He was thrown into an adult jail for overstaying his visa even though he has already applied for an extension and even though his mother is married to a U.S. citizen.

I believe the problem is that John Ashcroft is one of those narrow-minded whitey-white-bread types who consider anyone who is not white and Christian to be a threat to their way of life. I mean, how could they possibly make good citizens if they are not Christians? This is a Christian country, founded on Christian principles, right? I learned that from George H. W. Bush, who once said that atheists couldn't possibly be good citizens because this country was founded on Christian principles. Weird.

How can someone like Ashcroft, who worships at the altar of the NRA, think for a minute that he would catch the bad guys by asking them to voluntarily come in to have their pictures and fingerprints taken? Isn't it the second law of the NRA that "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns?" Would someone who believes that expect the "outlaws" to voluntarily come in to have their fingerprints taken? But I guess if you believe in speaking in tongues and you believe in having your daddy anoint your forehead with cooking oil and you believe that calico cats embody satan, then this is not all that far-fetched.

Besides, maybe this is just their newest weapon of mass distraction. They need to get the media's attention away from Trent Lott's comments. His comments about Strom Thurmond were bad enough, but now he has really done it! He went on that TV channel and declared that he will work hard in support of affirmative action. Now that's really, really going too far.

[afishybusiness]

Gee guys, don't hold back... tell us how you really feel. I'm a pretty easy going fella, but I think that some of the above comments were a little out of line. I know I'm kinda the new guy here, but if you want traffic to come TO reefland, (as apposed to the alternative) in my opinion, posts like that shouldn't be allowed to stay. What is it that the BB veterans say? Oh, yeah.. that's just my $.02. I'm deffinitely not trying to start a post war, so let's not go there, I just needed to put that out there.

[wgscott]

"some of the above comments were a little out of line..."

Well, apart from my title (which was just designed to attract attention) all I did was post a newspaper article.

Not that it should matter, but what I found amazing even when held up to the background of the "logic" of the roundup was the fact that they are mass-arresting Iranian JEWS. I think they are among the last people (a) we should be rounding up and (b) who might threaten the US. Hence my title choice. I really meant nothing more than that. Honest.

However, having said that, I agree with Ninong on this one -- I think he is right that our Attorney General is going way overboard on this, and that perhaps his particular religious outlook makes him view a terrorist security problem as a Holy War between Christians and heathen. This is problematic on several levels, including putting us on a moral footing equivalent to Muslim fanatics waging Jihad on the US citizenry. Sorry, but I think our country is capable of doing better than this (even if Ashcroft is not).

The other worrysome thing is that the US press barely considers mass-arrests and detentions newsworthy. There was a small article on the bottom front page of the LA Times, but I could not find it in any other paper including the NYT. Yet the British press has this on the front page, and the BBC has it on their World Service broadcasts.

Doesn't it worry you when the government starts mass-arresting people and the news media blacks it out?

I am sure I speak for both of us when I say I am glad you are here, but the fact that the only place you are seeing this discussed is on a tropical fish bulletin board is kind of frightening, no?

Anyway, argue, don't leave. Ninong will give you a run for your money. I've never found him to be at a loss for words....

[Ninong]

Originally posted by afishybusiness
I'm a pretty easy going fella, but I think that some of the above comments were a little out of line. I know I'm kinda the new guy here, but if you want traffic to come TO reefland, (as apposed to the alternative) in my opinion, posts like that shouldn't be allowed to stay. What is it that the BB veterans say? Oh, yeah.. that's just my $.02. I'm deffinitely not trying to start a post war, so let's not go there, I just needed to put that out there.

You're certainly welcome to "put that out there," or anything else for that matter. But it might help us move the dialogue along if we knew exactly which of "the above comments were a little out of line" in your opinion.

The statement attributed to the 41st. president of the United States that atheists could not possibly be good citizens in his opinion because this country was founded on Christian principles is a matter of record. I would be more than happy to quote the complete text of his comments for you with the date and place (it was at an airport during his campaign for the presidency) if you like, but you can find it for yourself by entering "George Bush on atheism" in almost any search engine.

Attorney General Ashcroft is an ordained Pentecostal minister (Assemblies of God), as was his father and his grandfather. He does believe in speaking in tongues and it "happens" on a regular basis at his church in Missouri. Both his father and his grandfather actually had the "gift" themselves. He also believes in the power of healing by laying on of the hands. Both his father and his grandfather claimed that power, too. In fact, his grandfather toured around the country in a beatup Chevy wagon spreading the word, taking his father and his other children on the road with him. It was the family business. He did actually have his father anoint him on the forehead with cooking oil from the kitchen (when his father was still alive) whenever he was sworn in to a new position. He is convinced that satan resides in calico cats -- I can find that one for you, too, but you can locate it on any search engine by entering "John Ashcroft on calico cats."

That leaves us with Mr. Ashcroft's relationship with the NRA and his "whitey white-bread" frame of mind. He is an ardent supporter of the NRA and has made radio ads for them, most recently in endorsing an unsuccessful 1999 referendum that would have allowed Missourians to apply to their county sheriff for permits to carry concealed guns. The campaign was heavily backed by the National Rifle Association. The idea was that if everybody was armed to the teeth, the bad guys would be too afraid to do anything bad. Just like the Old West. Yippee!!

His opposition to minority judges is well documented, as is his unorthodox interview technique. Several former applicants have reported being asked by Governor Ashcroft about whether they were "faithful to their wives" and about whether they drank alcoholic beverages. Both of those questions are in violation of the law, at least I couldn't ask them when I worked in California. And I should know because I made a few mistakes of my own in interviewing people.

He is opposed to abortion, even in cases of incest or rape. In May, 1999, Ashcroft traveled to Bob Jones University in South Carolina to receive an honorary degree. This Christian school in Greenville has a segregationist history and until recently banned interracial dating and marriage. It lost its tax-exempt status in the 1970's because of racial discrimination but was a popular stop for many GOP candidates seeking conservative support. Recent news articles mentioned that Trent Lott filed an amicus curiae brief in support of Bob Jones being allowed to discriminate on the basis of race since it was part of their religious belief. Trent thought they should be allowed to keep their tax-exempt status in spite of their prohibitions against interracial dating and marriage since their positions were based on their Christian beliefs. I kid you not. I can get you a copy of the complete text of the filing, or you can find it easily with any search engine.

In the October 1998 edition of Southern Partisan, a South Carolina magazine, Ashcroft said "traditionalists must do more" to defend Confederate President Jefferson Davis and Gens. Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. Granted this is the weakest accusation against him but the code word "traditionalists" is the key part of this little tidbit. Giving interviews to that particular magazine, knowing it's history and subscriber base, is akin to Trent Lott giving the keynote address at the CCC convention (another little problem for Trent that dated back to 1992).

As governor of Missouri, Ashcroft twice vetoed legislation intended to allow the League of Women Voters to register new voters in St. Louis, a Democratic-leaning city. The bills would have implemented the same voter-registration procedures already used in the more heavily Republican areas of the St. Louis suburbs. Ashcroft cited concerns over voter fraud as his rationale for nixing the legislation. But observers claimed that was not the case. "There is no evidence that the fraud feared by the Election Board would take place if outside groups were permitted to sign up voters," the St. Louis Post-Dispatch said in a July 1989 editorial. "Accordingly, the bill ought to become law."

I could go on an on with more little tidbits that reflect the true frame of mind of John Ashcroft, but I think you get the picture. He managed to squeak through senate confirmation by a vote of 52-48. I still like the $8600 the Justice Department spent for those dark blue drapes to "hide the naked statues" behind his podium at press conferences. At first they insisted that the Attorney General did not order them to "hide the statues," they were supposedly ordered to provide a backdrop for the TV cameras. Internal DOJ emails confirmed that they were ordered "to hide the statues."

Oh, and in case you were concerned about my comment about Trent Lott "going too far" in announcing his "support for affirmative action" in his interview with Ed Gordon on BET-TV, that wasn't my comment, that was the comment of a couple of his fellow Republican senators. One of them was even offended that he apologized for his opposition to making Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday a national holiday. He went too far with his turnaround on that issue, too, in the mind of Don Nickles.

[wgscott]

But apart from that we really like him too, and especially enjoy his musical and vocal talents.

Besides, Ninong, the best way to get people to focus upon preserving Constitutional Ammendment #2 is delete 1,3-10 and thereby rid ourselves of needless distraction.

But John Ashcroft is to civil liberties what James Watt was to the environment; I just became for the first time today a "card-carrying member of the ACLU."

[Ninong]

Originally posted by wgscott:
I just became for the first time today a "card-carrying member of the ACLU."

I'm sure they are already aware of that if you did it online... ...what with "ACLU" being a trigger for the computer that harvests data from the internet. But just in case they missed it, I understand your tank was experiencing a veritable explosion of new life just before your lab was burned down. Have they ever figured out whether it was arson or not? Perhaps one of those radical UCSC students didn't appreciate his progress report, or do you actually give them grades now?

[wgscott]

I'm beginning to see afishybusiness's point...

PS: We've always given them grades. Mostly Ds and Fs in my case.

[schrocat]

Originally posted by Ninong

I'm sure they are already aware of that if you did it online... ...what with "ACLU" being a trigger for the computer that harvests data from the internet. But just in case they missed it, I understand your tank was experiencing a veritable explosion of new life just before your lab was burned down. Have they ever figured out whether it was arson or not? Perhaps one of those radical UCSC students didn't appreciate his progress report, or do you actually give them grades now?

LMAO!

You guys shouldn't attack our leaders like that.
It could spread discontent like a virus through our sleepy ranks.

Do you guy smell backlash from Ashcroft's little rodeo roundup?
Not fazing people much in my area.

Maybe the great crooner Lott can saddle up and help sort through some of that backlogged government paperwork...he's gonna have a heaping helping of free time next year.

"Happy...Trails...to you..."

[Ninong]

Schrocat,

Yes, there is a lot of backlash in California, especially L. A. and the Bay Area, but I don't think they will get too concerned about it unless Rush Limbaugh or Jerry Falwell complains and the odds on that happening are about the same as my winning the $215 million powerball jackpot tonight.

The INS is now saying that they have released everybody except for about 20 people. Those 20 are still being held "because they are of interest to various law enforcement organizations," said an immigration official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Some of the stories are so ridiculous that they are almost unbelievable: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...1/MN150184.DTL

[Ninong]

Originally posted by Schrocat:
Do you guy smell backlash from Ashcroft's little rodeo roundup?
Not fazing people much in my area.

Speaking of backlash: Good ole boy Trent Lott is having a hard time explaining exactly what he meant by "support for affirmative action" to some of his fellow good ole boys down here. Turns out it doesn't mean what most people mean when they say "affirmative action." It just means that he thinks people should be hired without regard to race or quotas or anything like that. Sounds more like "equal opportunity" to me, but if he says "equal opportunity," then he'll have to explain to them exactly what he means by "equal opportunity." Kinda reminds me of Bubba saying that it all depends on what the definition of is is.

[schrocat]

Doncha' just love a good pendulum?!

Gaaaaak!

Who else poisoned their karma by beating their moral chests just a little too hard during Bubba-gate?

Barr...gone.
Lott...gone.

...who else?

[Ninong]

Check it out: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...25/MN94194.DTL

[wgscott]

Isn't that just like the left-wing liberal media, telling us how horrible America is because these guys won't be home for Christmas, since everyone knows these guys must be Jesus-hating Muslims or (according to the previous account) Christ-killers as well.

Another enjoyable tidbit: "A third round, for Pakistanis and Saudis, will run from Jan. 13 to Feb. 21." Since so few of the terrorists were Saudi and the Taliban never mix with Pakistanis, I can see why rounding these guys up is of much lower priority.

[MarkS]

Well, I AM a white Christian and am appalled!

Apperantly, this administration has forgotten that Hitler sent 10's of thousands of HIS OWN citizens to the camps because they were Jews. Or that whole Japanese detaiment thing that we did in WWII.

What have we gained from all this?

Mark

[Caesar Augustus]

Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it

-George Santanyana
A personal favorite of mine. I am with afishybusiness on this on and I am a veteran. We all have strong feelings and no liberal is going to turn Republican overnight and as a Republican I can promise you we are not going to start watching 'The West Wing' anytime soon. We should bury this post and discuss something we can all agree on a little more like................just which religion is the best anyway
Keep the faith,
Napoleon

[schrocat]

Originally posted by Napoleon
. We should bury this post and discuss something we can all agree on a little more like................just which religion is the best anyway

LMAO!

I can hear the fires quinching already!

[Ninong]

Actually that's a very easy question to answer. As anyone will tell you, their religion is best. It is an amazing coincidence that of all the world's hundreds of religions, each one of us just happens to choose the correct one-and-only true one. Another amazing coincidence is the fact that virtually all of us choose the same religion as our parents.

There seems to be a strong hereditary component in the selection of the best religion but it is truly amazing how it works out perfectly for each individual.

[wgscott]

Originally posted by Napoleon
no liberal is going to turn Republican overnight and as a Republican I can promise you we are not going to start watching 'The West Wing' anytime soon. We should bury this post and discuss something we can all agree on a little more like................just which religion is the best anyway
Keep the faith,
Napoleon

Huh?

Anyway I have to agree with you that the West Wing show is among the most annoying things I have ever seen. Self-importance, banality and bad-acting. It also serves a very useful propaganda roll. These White House people come off as looking like bungling humans who occasionally make mistakes just like you or me. It keeps people from seeing an institution responsible for killing over 2 million people in Indochina, over 600,000 children in Iraq, etc.

Anyway, to answer the religion point, the easiest way out of Ninong's paradox is to realize that there is no God. Clears up a lot. Imagine if people finally got sick of the whole God-worship thing during the next 100 years and started behaving in a civilized manner with each other.

The more I think about it, the more I think humanity can only survive if we manage to rid ourselves of irrational belief, including deity worship, once and for all.

[Ninong]

Hi WG,

I haven't seen West Wing, so I can't comment on that but I can say that as of today anyway, you are still permitted to choose freedom from religion as well as freedom of same.

As far as our war in Viet Nam and the Nixon/Kissinger war in Cambodia are concerned, it is obvious that we would not have been involved in such adventures if only the South had won the Civil War.

In fact, if the South had won the Civil War we might have avoided World War I, prevented communism in Russia and Hitler in Germany. Slavery, of course, would be long gone, for economic reasons. But a Union defeat would have given states' rights a boost in both countries and we would have been much better off for it. Strom Thurmond wouldn't have had a platform to run on.

See, Herr Ashcroft's indoctrination program must be working because I am starting to think like a Republican already. What? Some of you Republicans out there say that you don't think that way? Shame on you, bad Republican!

I learned all of the above in an article that was sent out in an official Republican communication from Bill Back, Vice-Chairman of the Republican Party of the State of California. Good ole boy Bill is running for Chairman of the California GOP right now.

The article by William S. Lind, conservative commentator for the Center for Cultural Conservatism, was entitled "What If the South Had Won the Civil War?" "It was put out there to get people thinking," according to GOP Vice-Chairman Back. "Federalism is very important to Republicans and this would start people thinking about that."

Back said he reserves his comments for the "vice chairman's corner" part of the newsletter, but includes a variety of articles "to stir up debate and make people think." Nonetheless, Back said he didn't recall Lind's commentary drawing any response -- positive or negative -- from the online readership. (P.S. -- Remember, all of the online readers are Republicans.)

Vice-chairman Back, a Republican Party activist from Yuba county, hopes to be elected chairman next month when the California GOP meets to select their new Fuhrer... I mean leader. These are desperate times for the California Goppies. They just lost every single statewide office for the first time in 120 years.