TOTW 4-19-05 sump water levels

[prow]

i just hooked up my new refugium for my 120gal tank and was wondering what should the water level be in the refugium. my sump is about 40gal 48x12x18 glass with acrylic dividers. the flow from the main tank goes into the sump chamber#1 about 4"x12" filled with wet bio balls to help break up the dentrites. then the flow goes into chamber#2 (the refugium area) that is 24x12 the overflow in the refugium is at 15" high(water level)and goes into chamber#3 which is 3"x12" with wet bio balls to keep the cualupra and micro air bubbles for entering the main tank. then the water flows into the pump chamber that is 11x12 and has 8" of water for my pumps for the return to main tank. the last 6" of the sump i put a divider at 17"high for emergency power failure giving me an extra 5gal or so for a resevere.(although when i turn the power off the water level in the sump never goes above 16" so i guess the last 6" is kind of a waste but it gives me peace of mind and i can always use it for a 5gal hospital tank) anyway my question: Is 15" of water depth ok in the refugium or is it too high or does it matter. Oyeah i am useing miricle mud (dont know if it makes a difference or not) and getting ready to add the caulupra. but before i do i want to know if my sump setup will work.

[Reefland]

Sounds ok, it doesn't really matter what the depth is as long as it is deep enough to put inside what you want but not so deep that it will overflow during a pump failure. I can't say I agree with the use of the bio-media but the water level sounds fine. ;)

[The R/C Man]

Sounds good to me also..

I have to second Scott about the bio balls though.....

[prow]

Sounds good to me also..

I have to second Scott about the bio balls though.....

why not the bio balls. have you ever heard of the ecosystem. that is what i am doing. the bio balls are wet meaning they are under the water line. so they will not be used as media. instead used for breaking up the dentrites. and prevent spores form entering the tank as well as micro air bubbles. i have read through alot of threads here and you guys give good honest opinions. that we all thank you for. read through this link and tell me what you think. www.ecosystemaquarium.com check there research and see there products also look at there articles aawww just read thourgh the whole site. i just built my own sump for this out of a 40gal tank. the bioballs are used WET not wet/dry. this is the first time i am using this system, but i have been to see leng the creator of the mericle mud. he lives near L.A. and his tanks are well WOW. the local fish store (neptunes in torrance,c) has had this system going for 2years and they tell me the only thing they add is ca+. and all levels are perfect i mean all levels even the ca+ remains at 380 with out adding anything. aquaticfantasy in redondo beach also has this system going they tell me the same thing. to keep the ca level above 410 they add ca. but nothing else.

[prow]

Sounds ok, it doesn't really matter what the depth is as long as it is deep enough to put inside what you want but not so deep that it will overflow during a pump failure. I can't say I agree with the use of the bio-media but the water level sounds fine. ;)

hey thanks for the input. i have a link for you to check out www.ecosystemaquarium.com the design of my sump comes from leng and his mericle mud. the bio balls are wet not wet/dry. they are under the water line. its my guess that the 1700gph flow rate through my sump has something to do with the effect of the balls. anyway read through this site and tell me what you think. look at there products i basicaly built the 3612 model. so tell me what you think about this system after reading through the site. F.Y.I. the people at this site respond to questions very fast.

[Reefland]

I am familiar with the EcoSystem method. The fact that you have the media submerged is a bit better I guess but the fact remains that the media will accumulate waste if not frequently cleaned, the waste that builds can/will lead to nitrate problems. The cure is to clean the media frequently which at that point you are effecting the bacteria populations that have developed there. In turn, the media is counter-productive and I do not recommend their use.

[prow]

I am familiar with the EcoSystem method. The fact that you have the media submerged is a bit better I guess but the fact remains that the media will accumulate waste if not frequently cleaned, the waste that builds can/will lead to nitrate problems. The cure is to clean the media frequently which at that point you are effecting the bacteria populations that have developed there. In turn, the media is counter-productive and I do not recommend their use.

wow fast response thanks. i am still going to try this system out. i like to experiment so this will be interesting to see the difference. anyway leng told me the maintenance consists of sucking out the bioball sec about 5 gal every week. thus removing the waste build up, that is all the cleaning needed no big water changes just the cleanning once a week in chanber #1. and the addition of ca+ is the only maintenance needed. he also says that the high flow rate decreases the waste build up as well. i believe this to be ture as only a few micro organisims are able to attach themselves in such a turbulant enviorment (my flow rate within the sump is 1700gph) i do understand your thought proccess and concerns. and thank you for the advice. if it was not for me seeing 2 different tanks at different places with this system plus seeing like 4 tanks at lengs all running for over 2years with the same results nitrates at 0 phos 0 with heavy loads in the tank. i would not even think of using it. i mean no protien skimmer, bioballs before the refugium, and a high flow rate within the sump all sound like potential big problems on an individual level but combining them sounds like major trouble. but i did see all these tanks with this set up and they were all doing as well if not better (actually better) than any other setup i have seen. the only difference i saw with these tanks was the lighting, one was a 60gal tank with pcs the other was a 240gal tank had MH with t5ho atinics. did not pay any attentiion to the lighting at lengs(damit). i just sent a sample of the mud to my friends in the lab waiting to see the results they should get back to me within the week. i want to see what is so special about this mud. and its really mud not sand or anything but mud mud. anyway thanks again for all the help and good advice i get here. if this system works like leng says i will let you know if not i will let you know. so either way i will let you know what happends. by the way i am a medical professional and have great understanding of the biological mechanisms involved. understanding the reproductive proccess of different types of micro oragnisms anarobic arobic bac as well as fungus and protozoas. cleanning out the bioballs will not have a noticable effect on the bac population within the tank. live rock and live sand are the bacteria media and disturbing a small 5gal sec (boiball chamber in a 150 gal system) in the sump will not have any noticable effects on the tank as a whole unless i do not clean the section out for a long time and allow heavy build up. the funny thing here is i work at ucla medical ctr and have the whole team of medical technologist working on this project. if everything goes well with this system i am going to try to get all the attendening doc on board and put fish tanks in all the ICU units. there is a lot of research on the effects of fish tank on patients. anyway i think i said to much i must go now. let you know what happens

[The R/C Man]

My system is also set up as an ecosystem style sump/fuge. The water enters on the left side of the sump where I have an Aqua C Remora skimmer. It then goes over one baffle into the fuge. After the fuge over and and under two baffles. In between those baffles are a piece of foam to keep critters from getting to the return pump and a bag of carbon. I left out the bio balls even being "wet" because they are an added maintenance task with minimal benifits. Without the balls I have no problems with micro bubbles in the main tank. I guess it just depends how much work you want to do....

[The R/C Man]

Remember there are many ways to get great results so what ever works for you do it..... Here are a couple pics of my success.... This is only 25 gallons with a 10 gallon sump/fuge....

[prow]

My system is also set up as an ecosystem style sump/fuge. The water enters on the left side of the sump where I have an Aqua C Remora skimmer. It then goes over one baffle into the fuge. After the fuge over and and under two baffles. In between those baffles are a piece of foam to keep critters from getting to the return pump and a bag of carbon. I left out the bio balls even being "wet" because they are an added maintenance task with minimal benifits. Without the balls I have no problems with micro bubbles in the main tank. I guess it just depends how much work you want to do....

well you made me think about the cleanning of the bio balls. for me i think it will be easy to exchange them and syphon out the chamber when i do my 5gal water change every week. one thing i noticed about your set up is that you added carbon. just a guess but is it because nitrites or phosphates were high. one thing that leng recommends is that your sand in your tank be only 1" max. because the mud contains the needed bac and is your filtration more substrate in the display tank will become a nutrient sink. more than 1" will cause high nitrite and phos levels resulting in a algae bloom. as well as keeping it under 1" when cleaning instead of not disturbing the sand we should syphon it with the intent to get all the detritus as possible. not that your tank has more sand or that this is a problem at all. i can only see the top of your sand in the tank so i dont know. but just an observation. if not why did you add the carbon? i do like your little tank though and the coralline alge growth looks good.

[Poseidon]

I will also chime in AGAINST the bio balls! More work then they are worth! Right now I am running an experiment, I built a Macro algae "wall" using eggcrate from HD, I use that right in the middle of my sump, it keeps all the micro bubbles from reaching my return pump at the right side of the tank. I have NO BAFFLES in the sump right now, and I do not get Microbubbles in the tank. HOWEVER if my overflow ever quits, I will get a HUGE MESS!!! When I move and have to replace my current tank and sump I will make sure to put at least ONE baffle in to prevent the flood!

Also I use a 4-6" Deep Sand Bed (DSB) for my filtration, never touching it. Do a search here using DSB, then another using Miracle Mud. I think advertising hype has a LOT to do with MM myself, I have read little to support the claims of the product.

[prow]

Also I use a 4-6" Deep Sand Bed (DSB) for my filtration, never touching it. Do a search here using DSB, then another using Miracle Mud. I think advertising hype has a LOT to do with MM myself, I have read little to support the claims of the product.[/QUOTE]

i agree with the sand being used as filtration i usaully set up different than this system. i think i have read every post about MM here. and i am kinda at odds with using such a small amount of sand but from what they say at ecosystem, is use it only as decoration because the mud is the filter and they recommend only a 3/8" or less sand bed. if 1" or more than will have big nitrite and phosate problems. i am trying to give this stuff a good chance. so i want to follow there recommendations as close as possible. the tanks that i saw in the local fish stores with this had very little sand in the tank. and i found out that the mud takes 9 months to fully establish itself. and during those months you have to fight with "bad" algae to prevent it from chocking the mud out like syphoning the top of the mud if any cyno bac is present. from all the people that i have talked to no one has set it up right. well the stores did. i think in part do to the 9 months it takes to really get this system going people start to add things to it instead of doing the maintance work needed. thus by adding and changing things the mud never establishes itself fully or the dynamics have been changed. that and from what i understand getting the caulerpa to grow in the refugium with a flow rate of 1700gph running through it might be a challenge because the flow blows off CO2 which it needs to grow. by sealing the sump with plastic wrap (if nothing else) is the cure here it locks the CO2 in. but most reefers that i have talked to ended up turnning the flow down which again effects the dynamics of the mud. all this is just what i think from my research but i have yet to see it work. but i do think anyone that wants to try it should set it up right and be patient. i have talked with a lot of people about this some say that they still need to add everything at the sametime some say they dont add anything and everything is at the right levels. so like any experiment i intend to set it up "the control group" exact in a effort to reduce the variables that might have an adverse effect on my experiment.since there is little information on this system and with conflicting results with various modifications i can not rely on them. so i decided to go with it in a scientific way. at least i will give it a try. i plan to post some pic(as soon as i find my flash disc) of my project from beginning till now. and will try to let you know how it goes during the 1st year with the algae to coral growth water parameters ect...this way you can have a record of one ecosystem set up to spec and maintained correctly for a year. this should provide a good base for future discussions. by the way when it is that time(3 months or so) i will be using 7-8 (depending on how many i can fit) 80 watt ati t5ho lights with individual tek or corallife reflectors. i will be getting some clams so we will see. i think for my tank it will be fine because its only 20" high. so here we go the newest systems and technology from top to bottom put to the test. F.Y.I. i have been into reef tanks for about 10+ years although this is the first time with this system. i still need and want to hear all and any comments now and during the project. alrighty then untill next time cya.