HELP! Mag too fast or sump drain too slow???

[Fish R.Ph.]

Hello all,

Well, after much reading on this site, and valuable input, I decided to set up a 75 Gallon tank with a 30 gallon sump under the tank. Through questions in other threads many of you have assisted me tremendously! Thank you!

Yesterday I finally was able to connect it all, fill with water, and try it out. SCARRY!!! Especially since it was sitting in its permanent home on our newly carpeted den. No leaks. WHEW!!!!!

However, I've got a real problem:

The Mag 9 may be too powerful or my Durso (home made) drain may be too slow (I did it all with 1 inch PVC since I didn't have ready access to 1-1/4 inch PVC). Drain to the sump is also 1" PVC.

My display fills right up to the brim, and would overflow if I didn't crank back the Mag's output using 1 or both of my ball valves I installed on the return .

With the ball valves cranked way back, it works great. But does this indicate a problem with my Durso return or is this typical? Should I have gone with the Mag 7? Shouldn't a 1" PVC return handle the output of the Mag 9? Does reducing the output of the Mag 9 (via ball valves) cause any damage to the motor?

Is there an obvious design flaw in my standpipe? Here is a pic before installed:

http://www.reefland.com/forum/attach...1&d=1131207550

Does this make sense? Anyone have some advice? If I increased the air hole at the top of the Durso standpipe would it result in faster return to the sump? I made the hole with a 1/4 inch drill bit.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

-Jason

[Poseidon]

Sounds like something is wrong. I don't have a durso, but I can tell you that my overflow with 2 1" drains is not enough to handle my MAG 12 in my 90 gallon tank. In my 135 I could open the MAG up all the way and had no problems. Weird huh? I would try to remove the durso first and see if the overflow can handle the volume. If it can then you know the durso is restricting the flow.

[Reefland]

I agree, try to remove the durso to see if this is the restriction or if it is the overflow. Typically the durso's should be made with a size larger pipe than the bulkhead.

[charlie]

If I am not mistaken, the output on a Mag 9 is only 3/4", and should probably stay that way. I seem to remember myself trying something like that with oversized PVC, and it ended up in disaster. HTH

[scubadude]

Hi Jason

Couple of questions

The Mag 9 may be too powerful or my Durso (home made) drain may be too slow (I did it all with 1 inch PVC since I didn't have ready access to 1-1/4 inch PVC). Drain to the sump is also 1" PVC.

So I take it that you have a 1.25" Bulkhead but only used 1 inch PVC? If so then your already restricting your overflow right there. And as scott said most people oversize their overflow a size.

With the ball valves cranked way back, it works great. But does this indicate a problem with my Durso return or is this typical?

Not necessarily, there are possible other victims the durso just is probably the most obvious. Whats the plumbing like underneath the bulkhead of the overflow to the sump? Any reductions there how bout curves, elbows etc.

Should I have gone with the Mag 7?

Absolutely not! If you have a 1.25" bulkhead you should be able to adequately accomodate most of that flow to your tank w/out any problems, dont be surprised though if you do have to throttle down a little bit to keep your balance of flow throughout the tank though. However you should not have to sacrifice 50%+ of the pumps power just to level your tank out. I would say your ball valve should not have to be throttled back more than 35%.

Shouldn't a 1" PVC return handle the output of the Mag 9? Does reducing the output of the Mag 9 (via ball valves) cause any damage to the motor?

No I dont think a 1" overflow will be able to handle a mag9 at full throttle, and reducing the output of the mag9 will not damage the pump as long as the reducing is done only on the output side.

Is there an obvious design flaw in my standpipe?

Im pretty sure there is, to really diagnose this problem though we need more information and pics too. Like I would like to know about the 2 ball valves what sizes they are and how they are plumbed and any fittings, reductions, pipes, flexhose, adapters etc you have inline throughout the whole circuit of the pump flow pattern.

If I increased the air hole at the top of the Durso standpipe would it result in faster return to the sump?

Possibly but I think the actual size of the pipe is restricting it more.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Ok,

Sounds like from all the input that I should start by altering my return a bit. Take out the durso, and see if just a simple straight pipe causes any probs.

I will begin draining enough water out to safely remove stuff right now. I'll keep ya posted.

THANKS!!!

I posted a few pics to show how things look right now. I do have a couple elbows beneath the overflow going to the sump..that could be restricting flow too. I will remove them and try again.

-Jason

[scubadude]

Your returns are not the problem, do like mike and scott said....remove the whole durso w/out doing anything else (it might make a loud gurgling noise but it will still overflow) If you can open up the mag alot more then there is most of your problem.

[Fish R.Ph.]

Your returns are not the problem, do like mike and scott said....remove the whole durso w/out doing anything else (it might make a loud gurgling noise but it will still overflow) If you can open up the mag alot more then there is most of your problem.

Well...

I removed all the overflow Durso PVC, leaving just the straight 1 inch PVC pipe. I also changed out the elbows on the bottom to just drop straight into the sump.

Worked fine. I could open up the Mag outflow all the way and the overflow handled it without any difficulty. Perfect!!! Thanks!!

BUT WOW, WHAT A NOISE!!! Without the Durso elbow it sounds like some huge giant trying to suck the last few gallons of water out of a swimming pool with a PVC straw!

So, I guess my choices are:

1) Build the Durso the way I SHOULD have with 1-1/4 inch PVC. I'm sure I can find this somewhere. Maybe this would provide the additional room in the openings for better water flow (I'm not totally convinced though, anyone out there use this system, can you comment on the noise?....)

2) Ask y'all what other methods for dampening the noise could be built, while maintaining sufficient flow back to the sump.

3) Buy some ear plugs for my wife and I...

Votes?? Thoughts?

Thanks for all the help from everyone!

-Jason

[charlie]

How big is the bulkhead? When I did my overflow, I just ran the correct size of PVC up to where the water just flowed in with as little noise as possible. Mine has worked fine for almost 23 months now. Don't know if this will help you, we can hope!!

Good luck!!

[scubadude]

The noise has to do with a couple of things, one of the main ones is your hole in the top of the durso this can be adapted larger with a control valve (ya know those cheap plastic ones @ the LFS) so you can slowly control your noise which in turn will control your flow rate. you really should wait about 5-10 minutes after each tweak too cuz it will take a few minutes for your sump and tank to equalize the flow rate if you catch my drift. Another issue I saw that might be causing noise and possibly some backpressure is I noticed the plumbing from the bottom of the tank into the sump the pipes where submerged in the water. I would try and get the pipes either barely above water or have some pressure relief holes drilled above water or cut the pipe at an angle so some of the pipe is above your water level in the sump and the other piece of the pipe is submerged into the water level....kinda like a slide but it has positive ventilation...remember this is working on gravity too.

[scubadude]

How big is the bulkhead?

Yeah I kept wanting to know the answer to this too.....how big is that bulkhead?

[Fish R.Ph.]

How big is the bulkhead? When I did my overflow, I just ran the correct size of PVC up to where the water just flowed in with as little noise as possible.

The bulkhead, which is drilled in the right, rear, bottom corner accepts 1 inch (ID) PVC. I'm not sure what size that actually makes the bulkhead opening.

So...all you do is just run a straight piece of PVC right up to the overflow level, and it drains without a huge gushing sound?? I'd love to see a picture of that. I must be doing something wrong.....mine sounds like a freight train! Maybe I do need the ear plugs.

Anyway, the fact that I haven't had any leaks (YET!) and that the baffle system prevents any bubbles from returning is success enough for this weekend.

Thanks again for all the input!

-Jason

[charlie]

The noise has to do with a couple of things, one of the main ones is your hole in the top of the durso this can be adapted larger with a control valve (ya know those cheap plastic ones @ the LFS) so you can slowly control your noise which in turn will control your flow rate. you really should wait about 5-10 minutes after each tweak too cuz it will take a few minutes for your sump and tank to equalize the flow rate if you catch my drift. Another issue I saw that might be causing noise and possibly some backpressure is I noticed the plumbing from the bottom of the tank into the sump the pipes where submerged in the water. I would try and get the pipes either barely above water or have some pressure relief holes drilled above water or cut the pipe at an angle so some of the pipe is above your water level in the sump and the other piece of the pipe is submerged into the water level....kinda like a slide but it has positive ventilation...remember this is working on gravity too.

Rocky, if he doesn't have any baffles in his sump, he's gonna get a bunch of micro bubbles if you don't submerge the pipe, plus I do believe that will create a little more noise with the water gushing into the sump!!
Here's a pic of my overflow and the return into the sump. The second pic is really crappy!!
By having them that far into the sump, I believe it creates enuf backpressure to fill up the overflow box and cut down on my noise.

[Reefland]

If you removed the durso and was able to open the pump all the way up then you need to increase the size of the entire standpipe by .25". If your bulkhead is 1", then our durso should be 1.25" which will allow enough water (and air) down the pipe. Did you have a hole in the cap of the durso? What happens if you put it back in and totally cover the hole using your thumb? Can you still run the pump wide open (even though there will be a loud flushing)?

[scubadude]

Rocky, if he doesn't have any baffles in his sump, he's gonna get a bunch of micro bubbles if you don't submerge the pipe,

Yeah but I would think he would get bubbles back into the tank if he does that. I still think the Durso would work fine (heck maybe he wont even havta worry about the bottom pipe being submerged or not). I definately am glad he took out them 2 elbows though, and I also think Scott is right....just oversizing the pipe will help Jason out. Dont you get snails and stuff you have to fish out of your sump all the time with a straight pipe Charlie?

[Reefland]

We have a straight pipe and at times have had a snail or fish make their way down but nothing major. Hell as far as that is concerned, our Blackcap Basslett lived in the corner overflow for more than 3 months without us knowing.

[Fish R.Ph.]

If you removed the durso and was able to open the pump all the way up then you need to increase the size of the entire standpipe by .25". If your bulkhead is 1", then our durso should be 1.25" which will allow enough water (and air) down the pipe. Did you have a hole in the cap of the durso? What happens if you put it back in and totally cover the hole using your thumb? Can you still run the pump wide open (even though there will be a loud flushing)?

Yes, I did have a hole in the durso cap. However, when it was not draining fast enough, I thought I needed to enlarge it. I did. Still not drainig fast enough. Then I added 2 more holes on the top. That experiment failed...

However, when I just did what you said (i.e. block the hole(s) with my thumb), the drainage improved!! I was able to open the Mag much more, probably could have opened it all the way. I don't understand this. Maybe my whole problem was a hole that was too big to begin with?? Of course, it was still very loud. But does this mean I may be able to use the 1 inch Durso still? Or will I need to go to the 1.25 inch to reduce noise?

Charlie, thanks for the pic. If I can't get the Durso thing to work, I think I will just do what you did. I may not have had my return pipe up high enough, and maybe that was causing additional noise.

Maybe I will start with replacing the Durso cap and beginning with a very small hole. Is this a waste of time? Should I go right to the 1.25 inch Durso?

-Jason

[Reefland]

I tink you would be best off replacing the entire pipe with a 1.25" version. With the larger pipe you might have to cut the 90 elbow to get it to fit behind your overflow but this is by far your best option. It sounds as if there is not enough capacity in the 1" pipe for the water and air needed to flow through.

[charlie]

. Dont you get snails and stuff you have to fish out of your sump all the time with a straight pipe Charlie?

yeah, I do, but it gives me something to do at 5:30 in the morning.

[Fish R.Ph.]

I tink you would be best off replacing the entire pipe with a 1.25" version. With the larger pipe you might have to cut the 90 elbow to get it to fit behind your overflow but this is by far your best option. It sounds as if there is not enough capacity in the 1" pipe for the water and air needed to flow through.

Okay, next weekend I build the 1.25". I'd like to have all the plumbing running well, and the cycling begun by Thanksgiving when all the family comes over....

Scott, Mike, Charlie, & Rocky thanks for all you input on this project! If you're ever up in Central MA I've got a cold one waiting for ya in the fridge!!

God bless,

Jason