[seanndenise1]

Originally Posted by leebca

Artificial 'live rock' doesn't exist. There is however man-made rock that is cultured in the ocean which (if allowed to stay there long enough) comes pretty close to live. But artificial rock cannot be converted to live rock in an aquarium. You need to understand that the artificial rock will only be a surface area for Coraline algae, algae, and bacteria. It will never harbor the internal organisms and function like true live rock.

Good luck!

homemade reef rock can be way more pourous than alot of the stuff you get in the shops or online, i can pour water right thru the stuff i make and its several inches thick on some of the pieces,15-20 inches.
the only downfall of homemade is that you have to wait for the coraline growth,and that could be several months. whats in and on one rock, will eventually be in another.

the upside for me was the money. i have saved enough money making my own rock that i could buy a brand new, cheap car.

its rediculous the price these places charge for live rock.

you can make pieces that are absolutely phenominal for the cost of a candybar.

i regularly take homemade rocks that have a new colony growing on them and take them to the pet store or sell them in the newspaper, and on many occasions the people who come get them say they wish the rock in thier tanks looked as good as the piece they are getting.

i have set up nanos for several friends and other interested people with homeade live rock straight from my tanks and never had a ammonia spike.
so that tells me that they do an adequate job of biological filtration.

[leebca]

I don't think you'll find in the quote anything regarding artificial rock performing biological filtration. What artificial rock, even porous rock is incapable of is having those organisms which set up housekeeping inside the rock. You see. . .the organisms don't multiply in our aquariums and only infest rock in the ocean. As far as bacteria -- most will take up residence on surface areas.

Since the rock you speak about is so porous, those holes will not be anoxic so only the aerobic bacteria will set up housekeeping. It would be in fact better to have porous rock that doesn't allow much flow through the material so that anaerobic bacteria can better find their environment.

Artificial rock does not do the same as (live) rock harvested from the oceans.

Further explanation is given in this thread:
What is Live Rock, Anyway?

[seanndenise1]

hmmm

i have to disagree.

if what you are saying is true, then the live rock at some point in time is no longer carrying the microorganisms that originally came on your rock.

i mean, there is obviously a birth and death of the organisms, they cant live forever. they must multiply.

im not trying to start an argument but, you are contridicting yourself.

nothing lives forever, so if they cannot multiply in our aquariums, how long is your ocean born live rock doing what mine is not. at what point is your rock basically harboring only the organisms that mine is?

im not trying to start an argument with you, im just an interested aquariast wanting to learn. thaks for your reply.

[leebca]

You haven't read or don't understand the information provided in the reference link. The creatures living in the true 'live rock' reproduce through larval stages that the aquarium can't provide.

Bacteria reproduce in our aquariums, but not the worms and small organisms in the rock. You can disagree, but the facts remain -- worms and some other creatures found in live rock don't reproduce in our aquariums.

[seanndenise1]

Originally Posted by leebca

You haven't read or don't understand the information provided in the reference link. The creatures living in the true 'live rock' reproduce through larval stages that the aquarium can't provide.

Bacteria reproduce in our aquariums, but not the worms and small organisms in the rock. You can disagree, but the facts remain -- worms and some other creatures found in live rock don't reproduce in our aquariums.

on the link you provided for me, who wrote that article?, and what are thier credentials? a fact is something that is proven, not just opinion.

it does sound logical to me what the author said.
especially about what the author said about denitrafying bacteria and the dying off of creatures such as worms, and highly coraline encrusted rock, and the shipping process.
so unless you live near the ocean or have a leer jet at your disposal, you are playing a guessing game.

and it reinforces my logic that buying high priced live rock, is a waste of money.

unless you can get your rock shipped in water quickly, or get it straight from the ocean. you are basically buying base rock with coraline and denitrafying bacteria and some kool looking sponges,to remove ammonia. who knows what is on and in your rock. but you can hope that you get what you paid for.


which is what homemade live rock is, its basically a surface inside and out that bacteria can adhere to, to remove fish waste. and hope it looks good.
my rock that i make might not have 1000 year old creatures in it, but it will keep your tank dangerous waste free, and corals happy.

looking forward to your reply,

[seanndenise1]

Originally Posted by leebca

Artificial rock does not do the same as (live) rock harvested from the oceans.

what are the benifits of real live rock? what are the microorganisms found in real rock compared to artificial doing for the home aquarium?.

what are the facts.
i dont want opinions , i need facts.

[leebca]

First, credentials. I'm glad you ask for that. It is an important question you should ask of anyone. But that will take more reading and investigation on your part. My background is listed here:
Bio - Lee (a.k.a. leebca)

The notable expert on these matters is Dr. Shimek I suggest you Google to find out more about him. Just briefly, he is a Dr. of Marine Zoology. He specializes in those tens of thousands of small marine organisms from microscopic to the larger pods. He lectures at several hobby conventions.

Evidence you seek is in that thread. Look further down for quotes from Dr. Shimek.

In a FOWLR system, live rock isn't important, nor does it contribute anything special to the biological filter. This is because fish are not affected by medium levels of nitrates.

The value of real live rock is its ability to convert nitrates to nitrogen gas and other chemicals. That is its attraction. Until live rock was used in aquariums, it was not possible to keep marine life forms that were sensitive to nitrates. These were the first reef aquariums.

Is live rock necessary for this? Not at all. Now that we know the secret (keeping nitrates low) there are several different ways of doing this, without the need of live rock. Put anything into the aquarium that doesn't leach any negative chemicals.

'Dead rock' put into an aquarium mixed with live rock does not efficiently remove nitrates. Some anaerobic bacteria and bacteria that like anoxic conditions will take up residence in the artificial rock, but they need 'holes' that are not flow-through holes. The bacteria responsible for denitrification don't function in aerated water, but need stagnant, oxygen deficient water.

As far as nitrification goes, any surface will do including but not limited to: decorations, aquarium sidewall, substrate, plastics, etc. This portion of the biological filter goes on even if someone tries to stop it.

The facts you're interested in are still being studied. Perhaps you can conduct some experiments of your own. We know the effects of live rock and the value of the nitrate it denitrifies. We know dead rock doesn't do as much.

The value of live rock is pretty much the value of most things -- it's what it is worth to the buyer. Like I wrote above, there are several different ways of controlling nitrates and that is the value of live rock in a marine aquarium (once you get beyond the aesthetics of having it).

[seanndenise1]

Lee,thanks for your reply.
ok i can see maybe where we are at odds, i am confusing nitrates with nitrite.

i guess what you are saying about the organisms is that real live rock has organisms that remove nitrate that is left over from the nitrogen cycle. apposed to homemade rock that is only capable of the nitrogen cycle.
ammonia-nitrite-nitrate.
i never thought about that, ive never considered that since i do water changes and have micro algae for the removal of nitrate.

i better do some reading and get back to you on this.
thanks for the discussion,sean.

[leebca]

Originally Posted by seanndenise1

i guess what you are saying about the organisms is that real live rock has organisms that remove nitrate that is left over from the nitrogen cycle. apposed to homemade rock that is only capable of the nitrogen cycle.
ammonia-nitrite-nitrate.

Yes. But you should be aware that the bit about the homemade rock is not 100% true. If the DIY rock is made 'the best it can' it will harbor some of the bacteria that convert nitrates to nitrogen gas (the part of the nitrogen cycle that is called denitrification). It's just that, DIY rock never reaches the true capacity/ability of live rock at this function. We can't get 0 nitrates with this as the only means of exporting nitrates.

It wasn't until someone put actual live rock into their aquarium and added some circulation that it was apparent we could keep a reef aquarium. That is, we could keep the marine life (corals, inverts, etc.) which can't handle being in nitrates. This can't be duplicated with DIY rock.

I keep FOWLR aquariums. The live rock is not important to me because like yourself, nitrates are exported by water changes. I also export nitrates by raising macro algae in my refugium. Lastly, no worries because the fish I keep care less about medium to low nitrate levels.

Nitrites is a different subject!

Nice chat!