Calcium/Vinegar=?

[djnzlab1]

HI,
In my never ending quest to find better ways to add calcium to my system
I found a web page that talks about using vinegar to improve the release of calcium into solution reduce the ph .
Well I took it one step farther and took 2 liter jug plastic and added 2-3 cups of that (Florida Crushed Coral Substrate) it filled the jar to about 4 inches,
I then poured plain old white vinegar over the media til about 4 inches above the coral.
This stuff started to sputter and perk like a coffee maker Now if I remember my organic chemistry all that should be left in the jar is water mixtures of dissolved salts of trace elements and any calium carbonate not used in the reaction. I will test the PH to be sure it done wit simple ph paper.
Now in theory it should reach a neutral state and stop. Probably around a PH of 8.0
So I will test the solution in my lab to see how much free calcium was relased.
Why haven't we tried this before.
Most chemical reactions are self limiting and will reach a neutral state and stop. No excesive KH to deal with no PH shock, just free calcium and trace elements and alittle water. DUH
Acetate produce with the vinegar will be used by corals and the DSB for food. ITs a win, win. concept in theory.
more to follow.
PS don't put a lid on your reaction vessel it will explode due to pressure there be chemical reaction going on similar to that POP-POP fizz fizz.. of co2 being released hey may be feed some freshwater plants. dril a hole in the lid and put an airstone in the tank.. hehe
Doug
Will post the calium levels on the slurry today and the PH.

[Poseidon]

This sure sounds interesting... You try it first though! ;)

[Ninong]

HI,
In my never ending quest to find better ways to add calcium to my system
I found a web page that talks about using vinegar to improve the release of calcium into solution reduce the ph .

Did that web page talk about using vinegar to increase the solubility of calcium hydroxide in freshwater? In other words, were they talking about limewater (Kalkwasser)?

I assume the reduction in pH is indirect and results from the oxidation of the carbon in the acetic acid by the bacteria in the aquarium, right?

Well I took it one step farther and took 2 liter jug plastic and added 2-3 cups of that (Florida Crushed Coral Substrate) it filled the jar to about 4 inches,
I then poured plain old white vinegar over the media til about 4 inches above the coral.

I have a bad feeling about this idea but it's been more than 50 years since I took college chemisty, so I'll just leave it at that -- an uneasy feeling.

Now in theory it should reach a neutral state and stop. Probably around a PH of 8.0

Aragonite doesn't begin to dissolve until the pH falls below 7.8.

Why haven't we tried this before.

I have a feeling that somebody probably has tried this before but I don't remember reading about it anywhere. If you try it, let us know how it goes.

On the other hand, what's wrong with simply using limewater (saturated solution of calcium hydroxide)? If you want to boost the amount of calcium hydroxide that will go into solution, you can add a little vinegar (no more than 3 Tbsp per gallon). I did that for awhile, but I only used 1 Tbsp per gallon. I later discontinued that idea because I decided I didn't want more of the calcium hydroxide to go into solution. I wanted some of it to precipitate to remove any metals and other impurities that might be in the calcium hydroxide (Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime). Besides, I didn't need extra-strength limewater anyway.

What you're proposing is a twist on a calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactor. Instead of injecting carbon dioxide to lower the pH causing the aragonite media to dissolve, you're adding dilute acetic acid to completely dissolve the aragonite, giving off carbon dioxide.

Assuming your idea is "safe," I wonder how much of it is safe to put into the tank???

It just seems to me that if this was such a good idea, we would have read about it somewhere by now. I have a feeling it may not be a good idea.

Acetate produce with the vinegar will be used by corals and the DSB for food. ITs a win, win. concept in theory.

It will be used by bacteria and result in a bacterial bloom. Acetate is just another carbon source, like vodka. Better be careful what you wish for here.

[djnzlab1]

6 hours after adding white vinegar to the crushed coral,
its stil bubbling alittle
PH is coming up slowly now 5.2
mag 164 mg/l or PPM
and calcium is 11808 mg/l
May need to let it cool alittle longer,
this may release trace elements back into the water is the reason for using crushed coral versus lime. there's more minerals in crushed coral that plain old lime.
My goal is to prevent the ph shock seen with the addition of Kalkwausser.
I use fluidized filter beds and they will burn the acetate rather quickly, I tried adding vinegar to my system and it cleared in about 20 mins. most of the so called tried and tru methods are rather new to the hobby most of the written records were lost or ignored at the invention of the PC, we are now reinventing the wheel as we speak.
Doug

[Ninong]

this may release trace elements back into the water is the reason for using crushed coral versus lime. there's more minerals in crushed coral that plain old lime.

Which is why calcium reactors are superior to limewater (Kalkwasser).

My goal is to prevent the ph shock seen with the addition of Kalkwausser.

Why would there be any pH shock when limewater is properly dosed? On the contrary, dripping limewater at night helps to mitigate the natural lowering of the pH level that takes place due to respiration. Anyone who dumps enough limewater into their aquarium to cause pH shock is definitely not doing things right.

[scubadude]

Hmmm...very interesting.
I just went through the whole DIY calcium and alk 2 part homemade recipe...Im not a chemist but isnt wat your doing virtually the same thing?

I just went to walmart and paid 2 bucks for some baking soda, and also bought some prestone driveway heat de-icer aka calcium-chloride and dilluted them w/a specified amount of ro/di water and this appears to be a VERY effecient way to add calcium to your system.

[scubadude]

BTW I have 7bux into my calcium chloride and 2bux into my baking soda.

So thats under 10 dollars and I think that I have enough to last approximately a year for my 125 gallon mix sps/softie tank

The only other thing I think that I might need which will be minimal is a magnesium supplement, and thats just another couple of bux for some epsom salt and mag flakes.

So in a nutshell I think for about 10dollars a year you could add calcium to a 100g tank w/fairly easy accessible ingredients at your fingertips or at the least online ordering.

[Okayamapiper]

Just wondeirng if a vinegar based calcium reactor would be feasible.

[Ninong]

Just wondeirng if a vinegar based calcium reactor would be feasible.

No, it would be a bad idea. The vinegar would cause bacterial blooms in the aquarium.

[Okayamapiper]

Thank you. I assume the formation of calcium acetate from the vinegar/calcium reaction would be the cause of the bacterial bloom. Just out of curiosity, is there an alternative to CO2?

[Ninong]

I just don't like adding vinegar because of the possibility of bacterial blooms. Salifert sells a product that is calcium acetate based. It's one of those all-in-one liquid additives. I don't know anything about it except that based on the price, it would be a very expensive way to go.

Calcium reactors all use CO2, which is why they're usually called calcium carbonate-carbon dioxide reactors. You can also dose limewater (Kalkwasser) instead of using a calcium reactor. The Germans were the ones who first started doing this with a Kalkreaktor instead of simply dripping it at night.

You need to get the pH down well below 7.7 to get the aragonite media to dissolve and CO2 is a good way to do that. You could also dump several pounds of aragonite sand (or media) into a large Rubbermaid container and then fill it up with R.O./D.I. water and let it sit for a few days before using that water for evaporation replacement. The pH of the R.O./D.I. water will be ~7.0, so you will get some dissolution of aragonite in the freshwater but nowhere near as much as you get with limewater (a saturated solution of calcium hydroxide). In fact, it would be so little that I don't think it would be worth the effort.

[Okayamapiper]

Thank you for the information. Here in Japan supplements are very limited and the prices are outrageous. I currently dose Kalk (1.5 liters/day w/12ml of 5% vinegar) to compensate for evaporation in my 35 gallon tank. I use a DSB so I was hoping it would consume the acetate. The idea of getting a calcium reactor has been tempting me for quite some time. Unfortunately prices are ridiculous out here with used H&S reactors selling for $400+, even a basic Prizm skimmer goes for over $200 just to give you an idea.