[james_r_edwards34]

Can I use quickrete premium play sand as a substrate? Has anyone used this and what were your results?? If not is there a cheaper alternative to what we buy at LFS?? I checked home depot and lowes website for the South Down brand with no luck. Also I want to make some live rock to add to the current 60 lbs I have.

Thanks,
James

[Samper]

I've used mixes of play sand and oolitic sand for a while with no problems. I don't know if there are any other additives in quickrete sand so you might check into that. Definately make sure it isn't the concrete filler. If you can afford a Calcium based sand I would strongly recommend that you go that route over any other. If not then play sand will do but can have feldspar as an additive and has been heat sterilized only. You could introduce pollutants if you aren't careful. I can't remember the brand but Lowes here carries a silica based sand that looks more like reef sand than the brown sand some places sell.

[calming-creations]

Originally Posted by james_r_edwards34

Can I use quickrete premium play sand as a substrate?

I have attempted to use many various types of sand. There are both positives and negatives about each type of sand.

Here is a detailed list about the available particles for aquariums:

1. Silica Sand
o Begins to dissolve in alkaline waters above pH 8.0.
o Rate of dissolution increases once pH reaches 8.5.

2. Dolomite
o Medium:
• consists of Limestone.
o Physical Structure:
• It’s a calcium and magnesium carbonate compound.
• One of the least soluble forms of calcareous material.
• Stable in alkaline waters above pH 7.5
o Ideal Usage: Undergravel filtration systems

3. Calcite
o Medium:
• consists of Calcium Carbonate.
o Physical Structure:
• Slightly softer than Dolomite.
• Begins to dissolve between a pH of 7.6—7.8.
o Ideal Usage: Undergravel Filtration Systems

4. Crushed Coral
o Medium:
• consists of dead coral rock crashed and graded to size.
o Particle Size:
• Grains 2—6mm
o Physical Structure:
• Very porous with sharp irregular edges great for bacteria.
• Little or no buffering, not good for deeper beds where infauna takes place.
o Ideal Usage: Great substrate for most Marine Aquariums

5. Crushed Oyster Shell
o Medium:
• Sold at feed stores as Chicken Feed and pet stores as substrate for marine aquariums.
• Contains a lot of calcareous dust.
• Requires thorough washing before using.
o Physical Structure:
• Basically flat pieces of shell
o Issues:
• Structure can become tightly packed over time causing water flow restricted or diffusion.
o Ideal Usage: NONE

6. Coral Sand
o Medium:
• consists of a calcareous material
• Naturally occurs along beaches and lagoons.
o Particle Size:
• ~1mm or slightly smaller
o Physical Structure:
• Mostly smooth sided
o Ideal Usage: Very Deep Sandbeds

7. Industrial Sand
o Medium:
• consists of a calcareous material
• Byproduct of companies making glass & other products.
o Particle Size:
• Too small
o Physical Structure:
• Smooth sided
o Ideal Usage: maybe, Very Deep Sandbeds

8. Oolitic Sand
o Medium:
• Found only in Bahaman Banks.
o Particle Structure:
• Consists of concentric layers of calcium carbonate surrounded by tiny remains of coral skeleton material, invertebrate shell, calcareous Halimeda algae, and tiny amounts of calcite.
• Usually smooth rounded not so useful for bacteria adhesions
o Ideal Usage: Deep Sandbeds

9. Aragonite Sand – Perfect for Natural Systems
o Medium:
• consists of processed fossilized reef material.
• Softest of calcium carbonates
• Easily dissolved, even at pH 8.2
o Particle size:
• Grains from below 1 mm – ~4 mm
o Physical Structure:
• Highly porous
• Angular shaped with high rough surfaces
• Allows for good bacteria adhesion
• Diffusion
• Contributes to minerals needed in seawater system
• Slowly releases calcium, magnesium, strontium, iron, as well as other useful elements
• Helps maintain natural calcium level
• Sustains alkalinity
• Reduces the need for some additives
o Ideal Usage:
• Below 1.0 mm → Deep Sandbeds
• At ~4 mm → Plenum Systems

10. Halimeda
o Medium:
• Very soft
• Dissolves at pH 8.2
• Contains great amounts of organic material
o Physical Structure:
• Very course and flat-sided
• Packs tightly blocking diffusion
o Ideal Usage:
• NOT in Natural Aquarium

As you can see there are ideal uses for each kind of sand particle. Keep in mind if you are looking for

Originally Posted by james_r_edwards34

a cheaper alternative

you are more than likely going to end up paying for it in the end either with plant growth or supplimental additives in the long-term.

As I stated in the beginning I have used many types of sand particles, but have never had as much suggest as I have with the use of Aragonite Sand live or dry. I believe in keeping my tanks as natural as possible so the more good bacteria the better the aquarium will do. It also have a great deal to do with what you are planning on keeping in the aquarium in the end.

If you have any questions please feel feel to IM me.

Thanks,
Joe

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by james_r_edwards34

Can I use quickrete premium play sand as a substrate?

Yes, you could, but I wouldn't. I'm just not a fan of using quartz sand in a marine aquarium. I consider the cost of aragonite sand just another of those necessary expenses that we are faced with if we want a nice marine aquarium. Or you could opt for no sand bed at all but I wouldn't go that route either.

If not is there a cheaper alternative to what we buy at LFS?? I checked home depot and lowes website for the South Down brand with no luck.

The Southdown brand was taken over a few years back and renamed Oldcastle; however, you probably won't find any of the Oldcastle aragonite sand available either. Southdown sand was never available in the Midwest anyway.

[Ninong]

calming-creations,

I would like to point out a couple of obvious incorrect statements in what you have posted. If your statements are based on something published, I would be interested in knowing who wrote this stuff???

Originally Posted by calming-creations

1. Silica Sand
o Begins to dissolve in alkaline waters above pH 8.0.
o Rate of dissolution increases once pH reaches 8.5.

Quartz (SiO2) is considered "totally insoluble" in water according to the US MSDS. Yes, it is true that everything is soluble in water over time but the rate of dissolution of quartz in water is so miniscule as to be unmeasurable. If your silica sand contains a significant amount of impurities (e.g., feldspar), these impurities may be more soluble than pure quartz.

If silica sand "begins to dissolve in alkaline waters above pH 8.0," there would be no silica sand beaches anywhere in the world. If silica sand dissolves in seawater at pH above 8.0, then we would be able to measure higher silica concentrations in waters around sandy beaches compared to the waters around calcareous beaches. The concentration is the same, roughly 2 ppm, except near the mouths of rivers where freshwater inputs increase the level. Normal river runoff entering the sea has 2-5 times the amount of dissolved silica in the surrounding seawater.

When studying oceanic silica cycles, researchers consider quartz sediments a "dead end" for silica -- so little is released that it has no measurable effects on the global silica budgets of the ocean.

Silica gets into our aquariums the same way it gets into the ocean: via freshwater. In the case of our aquariums, the silica is in our top-off water, and in the case of the oceans, it's in the freshwater from rivers. Quartz doesn't dissolve but there are other more soluble forms of silica, such as aluminosilicate, that permit silica to get into the freshwater runoff.

3. Calcite
• Begins to dissolve between a pH of 7.6—7.8.

Aragonite begins to dissolve in seawater at a pH between 7.6-7.8 but calcite does not begin to dissolve in seawater until the pH falls below 7.6. (P.S. -- Te be exact, aragonite begins to dissolve in seawater at pH 7.7 and below at NSW Ca concentration of 410 ppm and NSW alk of 2.5 mEq/l. In order to get aragonite to begin to dissolve at pH 8.2, you would have to lower Ca to 340 ppm and bring alk all the way down to 1.0 mEq/l, 2.8 dKH. The pH of seawater today is 8.2. One hundred years ago it was 8.3. It is estimated that if we don't do something about the amount of carbon dioxide that we are adding to the atmosphere, the pH of the ocean will drop to 7.9 by the end of this century.)

4. Crushed Coral
o Ideal Usage: Great substrate for most Marine Aquariums

This falls in the category of personal preference but personally I wouldn't consider crushed coral a "great substrate for most marine aquariums." I personally consider it the worst possible substrate for most marine aquariums.

8. Oolitic Sand
o Medium:
• Found only in Bahaman Banks.
o Particle Structure:
• Consists of concentric layers of calcium carbonate surrounded by tiny remains of coral skeleton material, invertebrate shell, calcareous Halimeda algae, and tiny amounts of calcite.
• Usually smooth rounded not so useful for bacteria adhesions
o Ideal Usage: Deep Sandbeds

"Oolitic" describes the shape of the particles: egg-shaped. It's still aragonite. It forms by precipitation over the Bahama Banks. Its particle shape does not in any way make it any less desirable for "bacteria adhesions." The shape of the particles, as well as their size, is important when it comes to the various populations of sand bed infauna and meiofauna but total surface area is more relevant for bacterial colonization.

9. Aragonite Sand – Perfect for Natural Systems
• Easily dissolved, even at pH 8.2

That's an absurd statement. In fact, it is so hilarious I can't believe anyone would either make it or repeat it.

If aragonite is easily dissolved in seawater at pH 8.2, then there would be no coral reefs anywhere in the world and there would be no calcareous sand beaches anywhere in the world. Aragonite begins to dissolve in seawater at pH below 7.8.

• Contributes to minerals needed in seawater system
• Slowly releases calcium, magnesium, strontium, iron, as well as other useful elements

Aragonite begins to dissolve in seawater at pH below 7.8, which is why we introduce carbon dioxide into our calcium reactors to lower the pH, allowing the aragonite media to dissolve.

There is a very small amount of dissolution of aragonite in a deep sand bed where the pH can drop below 7.8 but it is not a significant amount. Having said that, I still believe that aragonite (whether "oolitic" or otherwise) is an excellent choice for a marine aquarium and that it does provide a "certain" amount of buffering. However, I believe the benefits have been grossly overstated by the vendors who sell aragonite substrates. A lot of the dissolution that takes place inside a deep sand bed is almost immediately reprecipitated.

Aragonite is great but it's not as great as the vendors would have us believe. And it does not easily dissolve at pH 8.2. That sounds like some of the nonsense put out by marketing people who have no idea what they're talking about.

10. Halimeda
• Dissolves at pH 8.2

No, it doesn't.

[Poseidon]

Originally Posted by Ninong

...Southdown sand was never available in the Midwest anyway.

Hey! I am in the Midwest, and I was able to find it! I bought 4 bags at Home Depot, I wish I would have bought MORE. I will agree that it is no where to be found now though. If it was, I would have used it again when I moved.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

Hey! I am in the Midwest, and I was able to find it! I bought 4 bags at Home Depot, I wish I would have bought MORE.

If you found it at a Home Depot in Flint, Michigan, it was a mistake. Home Depot never did stock it in Michigan or anywhere near Michigan. There have been isolated instances of individual stores ending up with some but that was either through error or through some hobbyist succeeding against all odds in getting the manager of the local Home Depot garden depot to transfer some in from another store.

The farthest west it was ever stocked on a semi-regular basis was in the Cleveland, Ohio area.

[Poseidon]

Yup, Flint MI. The one on Court St. They had a pallet of it, I bought 4 bags, when I went back for more, it was gone. My Brother works at another home depot, and he has tried several times to get more in for me, it hasn't worked.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

Yup, Flint MI. The one on Court St. They had a pallet of it, I bought 4 bags, when I went back for more, it was gone. My Brother works at another home depot, and he has tried several times to get more in for me, it hasn't worked.

Yes, I remember. You told us about it when it happened and I told you back then that it was a fluke.

[Poseidon]

Lucky for me!

[scubadude]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

Hey! I am in the Midwest, and I was able to find it! I bought 4 bags at Home Depot, I wish I would have bought MORE. I will agree that it is no where to be found now though. If it was, I would have used it again when I moved.

Your barely MidWest Mike your almost canadian

[Poseidon]

Originally Posted by scubadude

Your barely MidWest Mike your almost canadian

LOL!!! Well that may be, eh? I do have a few loons around the house, now that the Canadian dollar is worth more then the US dollar people don't complain about the "fake" quarters...

[james_r_edwards34]

Thanks for all the replies. This has opened up great discussion. To the guy from Mi. GO BUCKS

[Ninong]

38-24 only because Miles played the bench for the last 3 minutes. It should have been 38-17.



P.S. -- Here's another number for OSU fans: 0-9. Ohio State is 0-9 in bowl games against SEC teams. Go Bucks!

[Poseidon]

Originally Posted by james_r_edwards34

Thanks for all the replies. This has opened up great discussion. To the guy from Mi. GO BUCKS

I can't wait till Nov! No conservative Offense this year.... Did you SEE THE UM v Florida game? Holy cow! I think OSU is in trouble this year, the streak is OVER! (Well not yet...)