DIY REFUGIUM

[saltjunkie]

I was wondering if anybody out there has done a diy refugium, did u do an in tank, in sump. im thinking of using one of those little boxes the lfs has that they use to bag our fish, thos little breeder tanks. it fits pefectly in my agua clear power filter that i only use for water flow! im gonna put a couple inches of live sand in it some algae and a realy good piece of small live rock. but first im gonna have to drill a couple of holes in each side of the box.
have any of you done anything similiar or have any further ideas on this train of thought?

------------------
Whoever invented salt water aquariums should be shot for taking all my money...everyday, oh well gotta have something to do!

[FishTechie]

I read this on another bb and was inspired to try something tonight, I have a few peices of plexi glass left over from my sump as well as some plastic eggcrate, i might make a small box with one side being eggcrate so that there will be water flow into it, ....hmm maybe two sides should be eggcrate....any ideas??

------------------

[Doh]

We had a bit of a discussion about this on the reef forum. Anyhoo i made my in-tank refugium last night, i used and old freshwater breeding trap. Glued 3 suckers to one side and stuck it in the tank, its got slots both ends so i aimed a ph at one end and hey pesto 5 min refugium. All i need now is some algae [img]/ubb/smokin.gif[/img]

------------------
"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals. Except the weasel." - Homer Simpson

[Joaco]

This is a good link to refugiums, with links to more refugiums in it:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/V.../refugium.html

mine is the lasat one on the list, includes the plumbing and lots of pics [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

Joaco

------------------
Joaco's saltwater webpage Updated 12th June 2000

[Greg Montalbano]

Originally posted by Joaco:
This is a good link to refugiums, with links to more refugiums in it:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/V.../refugium.html

mine is the lasat one on the list, includes the plumbing and lots of pics [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

Joaco

I have found that the refugium set up removes valuable oxygen from the system.I have tested oxygen saturation level's with the miricle mud system's, and they were low.Also many of the tank's showed a greenish/yellow tint,even with protein skimmer use,there is a high Gelvin production with this filtration system.

[MarkS]

Would you care to clarify this? This is the first time that I have and I am sure others heard this. Everything tht I have heard to date on refugiums and sump has been totally positive.

Mark

------------------

[Greg Montalbano]

Originally posted by MarkS:
Would you care to clarify this? This is the first time that I have and I am sure others heard this. Everything tht I have heard to date on refugiums and sump has been totally positive.

Mark

Algae breaths, during the day cycle the algae draw in oxygen and at night they give off vast amounts of carbon dioxide if allowed to be exposed to a night cycle,they also go into reproduction when given a night cycle.I have set up many reef tank's and I see no reason for the refugium system,there is plenty of algae in the main tank[in the form of encrusting type]to supply the same benefit's.I have tested the oxygen saturation on the miricle mud set up's which is a big refugium.And the levels were low, even with a good turnover flow rate.Greg

[Joaco]

Greg,
that is exactly reason why refugiums with macroalgae HELP with oxygen supply.
Run them with lights on reverse day cycle (or better yet, 24/7) and your oxygen level at night will be more stable, same for the pH stability.

About the Gelbstoff that is true, mostly tannic acid or phenols have built on the system because of the macroalgae, but Gelbstoff (German for 'yellow stuff') can very easily be removed with GAC (granular activated carbon), see the articles by Richard Harker:
http://www.wyx.com/iheo/tank/activated-carbon.htm

The miracle mud setup (as per Leng Sy from Ecosystem Aquariums) is just a refugium with ocean sediments, with some minerals and trace elements added, that's why it's patented. The oxigenation part is still done by the macroalgae in there.

Joaco


------------------
Joaco's saltwater webpage Updated 12th June 2000

[Greg Montalbano]

Originally posted by Joaco:
Greg,
that is exactly reason why refugiums with macroalgae HELP with oxygen supply.
Run them with lights on reverse day cycle (or better yet, 24/7) and your oxygen level at night will be more stable, same for the pH stability.

About the Gelbstoff that is true, mostly tannic acid or phenols have built on the system because of the macroalgae, but Gelbstoff (German for 'yellow stuff') can very easily be removed with GAC (granular activated carbon), see the articles by Richard Harker:
http://www.wyx.com/iheo/tank/activated-carbon.htm

The miracle mud setup (as per Leng Sy from Ecosystem Aquariums) is just a refugium with ocean sediments, with some minerals and trace elements added, that's why it's patented. The oxigenation part is still done by the macroalgae in there.

Joaco

I am able to keep oxygenation content at a high saturation point night or day,with the filtration system I use.And I don't have to deal with the large amount of Gelbstoff that is produced with a refugium.It does work,but there is too much maintenance[water quality control-Gelbstoff]to be practical.This is the system I use it's the DC-800 Model, here is the site.www.islandeco-systems.com, shortly I will be posting pic's my 135 gallon reef.Greg [img]/ubb/fish.gif[/img]



[This message has been edited by Greg Montalbano (edited 06-27-2000).]

[Joaco]

What high maintenance are you talking about in refugiums?
To remove Gelbstoff you just have to replace carbon from time to time, I don't consider that 'high maintenance'.
Water quality? the macroalgae takes care of it by nutrient export [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
Oxygen saturation? powerheads close to the surface, and strong skimming will do that too, all you need is gas exchange.
Macroalgae help with photosynthesis, but gas exchange at the water surface and in the skimming process are the main sources of oxygen.

Joaco

------------------
Joaco's saltwater webpage Updated 12th June 2000

[Greg Montalbano]

Originally posted by Joaco:
What high maintenance are you talking about in refugiums?
To remove Gelbstoff you just have to replace carbon from time to time, I don't consider that 'high maintenance'.
Water quality? the macroalgae takes care of it by nutrient export [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
Oxygen saturation? powerheads close to the surface, and strong skimming will do that too, all you need is gas exchange.
Macroalgae help with photosynthesis, but gas exchange at the water surface and in the skimming process are the main sources of oxygen.

Joaco

With a typical reef set up the live rock will provide all that is needed.The only other area's that have to be covered are water movement, protein skimming,I also add mechanical filtration, and chemical[GAC Carbon]as an extra measure due to the amount of coral's in the tank.Refugium's do work, but the live rock will provide the same properties.I have looked at web sites with all these different Refugium designs.And to be honest I don't see the need for this algae farming.To be honest with you all I'm not knocking the Refugium filtration.I grow my own live rock, a few years ago I purchased about 60lbs of Fiji rock now I have about 130 lbs of live rock, the rest that was added was dead white coral rock and tufa.Now it is encrusted with pink and purple algae, yellow sponges fan worm's.I do no water changes, and never have any problem's.In my research, Refugium filtration has not shown me any good reason to set up and use it.I feel algae farming should be used for captive breeding of marine fish and inverts.I'm closing my end of this thread, and I thankyou for the discussion on this topic.I will post pic's of my tank and the filter I use.Thanks Greg.[img]/ubb/goldfish.gif[/img] [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]/ubb/fish.gif[/img]



[This message has been edited by Greg Montalbano (edited 06-28-2000).]

[Joaco]

Greg,

I also add mechanical filtration

You sure know that mechanical filtration traps detritus, that's why mechanical filtration produces nitrates if it's not cleaned on a regular basis.

Furthermore, you can read Eric Borneman's article in the July 2000 issue of FAMA, page 112

'Detritus: A former foe turned friend -- An important component of coral reefs & coral reef aquaria'

Refugium's do work, but the live rock will provide the same properties.

With no waterchanges done (your case), I wonder how you keep e.g. low nitrates. You didn't mention any type of denitrifiction system like a deep sand bed, and you don't use caulepa macroalgae in a refugium for nutrient export either.

While it's true that anaerobic bacteria inside the live rock convert nitrates by reduction, a deep live sand bed does a better job, same for caulerpa growing in a refugium (yes, you have to harvest the caulerpa for nutrient export since macroalge only accumulates it in its tissue).


No waterchanges...
what's the bioload in that tank?
what kind and size of fish do you have in it?

Joaco

------------------
Joaco's saltwater webpage Updated 12th June 2000

[This message has been edited by Joaco (edited 06-28-2000).]

[Joaco]

Greg,
I took a look at the filter system you said you were using:



to be honest, it only looks like a modified hang on back canister filter.
I also took a look on how it works:
http://www.islandeco-systems.com/bio-fram3.htm

it has a sponge for mechanical filtration and bioballs for biofiltration, right?
mechanical filtration has to be cleaned (involves maintenance, what you criticize about other filtration systems).
And why does it have bioballs in there in the form of a mini wet/dry? all the biofiltration you need is done by live rock as you said above.

Can you please give us more details about your tank setup, bioload, etc? you also said you had some pics? [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Joaco

------------------
Joaco's saltwater webpage Updated 12th June 2000

[This message has been edited by Joaco (edited 06-28-2000).]

[dragon0121]

Not much mention made of the primary reason for a refugium, ... as a refuge! A refugium gives you a location outside of the predation of the main tank, where all of your critters can grow and multiply, and feed back to the main tank thru the plumbing. Many of us are also using the refugium for algal growth and export, but this is not necessarily the optimum method for nutrient export, just convenient. [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Ninong]

Originally posted by Greg Montalbano:

Algae breaths, during the day cycle the algae draw in oxygen

This statement is incorrect. During the day (or in the presence of light) plants absorb carbon dioxide and release oxygen, it's called photosynthesis! During the night (or in the absence of light) plants absorb oxygen and release carbon dioxide, it's called respiration!

At least, that's the way it works in my pond. Now if saltwater plants (algae) do it differently, I'm sure someone will be kind enough to point this out.

So there would be an obvious benefit in having macroalgae in a refugium that is lit on a reverse cycle from the main display tank. At least it seems obvious to me.

Ninong

------------------
Irrational Exuberance

[This message has been edited by Ninong (edited 07-01-2000).]

[omegatron]

No Nin you have it right Greg is very wrong. Plants do take in carbon dioxide and release oxygen in light and opposite at night
basic chemistry [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

------------------
This is the most addictive thing that i have ever come across as well as expensive

[Fraggincrazy]

Thanks Dragon,
I was reading thru all those post and couldn't believe that nobody mentioned the actual "refuge" purpose of the refugium. The main purpose of it is to allow all the larvae bearing pods to reproduce for a natural food souce for the main tank. The reason some people say that an algal filter is different is because without the live rock and live sand in there it is just an algal filter, but with all these things together you can really benefit from it.



------------------
"Try it, you'll like it"

[Joaco]

Fraggincrazy,

I was reading thru all those post and couldn't believe that nobody mentioned the actual "refuge" purpose of the refugium.

The reason why nobody mentioned it, is because the original post asked HOW TO make a DIY refugium, not asking about the purpose of a refugium [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

The reason some people say that an algal filter is different is because without the live rock and live sand in there it is just an algal filter, but with all these things together you can really benefit from it.

Algae filters, algae tanks and algae scrubbers are all intended for nutrient export.
A refugium has the purpose you mentioned above.
Two different concepts, two different goals, two different setups [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Joaco


------------------
My webpage Updated 3rd July 2000

[Greg Montalbano]

Originally posted by Ninong:
Originally posted by Greg Montalbano:

Algae breaths, during the day cycle the algae draw in oxygen

This statement is incorrect. During the day (or in the presence of light) plants absorb carbon dioxide and release oxygen, it's called photosynthesis! During the night (or in the absence of light) plants absorb oxygen and release carbon dioxide, it's called respiration!

At least, that's the way it works in my pond. Now if saltwater plants (algae) do it differently, I'm sure someone will be kind enough to point this out.

So there would be an obvious benefit in having macroalgae in a refugium that is lit on a reverse cycle from the main display tank. At least it seems obvious to me.

Ninong

You are correct, my mistake I should have proof read my post before submitting,I mixed up the intake, and give off benefits of the algae.Thanks for the correction. Greg

[Greg Montalbano]

Originally posted by Joaco:
Greg,
I took a look at the filter system you said you were using:



to be honest, it only looks like a modified hang on back canister filter.
I also took a look on how it works:
http://www.islandeco-systems.com/bio-fram3.htm

it has a sponge for mechanical filtration and bioballs for biofiltration, right?
mechanical filtration has to be cleaned (involves maintenance, what you criticize about other filtration systems).
And why does it have bioballs in there in the form of a mini wet/dry? all the biofiltration you need is done by live rock as you said above.

Can you please give us more details about your tank setup, bioload, etc? you also said you had some pics? [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Joaco

Yes you found the filter I use,using the picture you see the top prefilter which is where the mechanical sponge is to first trap large particles.This is where the first step of oxygenation takes place.The water passes over the lower wall and into the sponge,but as it passes over the wall the water is exposed to the air.Next the water is spread over a diffusion plate that separates the water,and allows for more oxygenation, due to the fact that the area just under the diffusion plate is an air pocket that is fed by 2 air holes in each of the inner walls. Now with water saturated with oxygen, and [bioload] it is exposed to the bio media that is underwater,I have found out that biomedia underwater grow's a vast amount of life on it that really makes the difference with filtration, rather than the wet/dry trickle exposure of the bio media.The more oxygen in the water that is being filtered the better job the bacteria can do in the breakdown of ammonia and nitrites.The water is now separated by the powerheads, one flow rate into the skimmers that is slower for increased contact time, and the other faster flow rate for water movement and filtration.Also a small amount of bubbles are released just under the surface, this agitates the surface and really add's alot of oxygen to the tank that creates a oxygen saturation level of 7.9-8.5 the entire tank benefit's from this[increased stocking levels on fish,inverts,coral's]I use a sand bed about 4inches deep, of aragonite and live sand, and have zero nitrates with a large bio load-two 5inch hippo tang's two 4inch yellow tang's a flame angel,two percula clowns,two tomato clowns,three new caledonian dansels,two green chromis,two 3stripe damsels,two pacific gobies,23 coral's of all species,4 brittle stars,30 large turbo snails,2 cleaner shrimp,5 camel shrimp,3 peppermint shrimp,1 sebea anemone, and 1 bubbletip anemone,135 gallon tank.Everybody get's along great! I clean the prefilter sponge which takes 3mins,and clean the skimmers once a month of any build up.The pic's are at http://pages.about.com/island2eco/fi...20aquaria.html [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]



[This message has been edited by Greg Montalbano (edited 07-12-2000).]