After some intensive reading I think I have chosen the bulbs and lights for the next tank (120g). I have purchased a dual 400w PFO mh ballast and I will run (2)96w pc's along with these mh's, thus giving me 992w or 8.26w/g. This should allow me to keeps some clams along with most any common coral I chose.
The bulbs will be as follows: The MH's will be 400w 6500K Iwasaki's. The pc's will consist of (1)03 actinic and (1)7100k.
Reasoning behind the choice, the Iwasaki's have the greatest balance throughout the PPFD (photosynthetic photon flux density)distribution which is sort of equilevent to PAR (photosynthetic availble radation). They also produce the most output over the entire PAR range based on test comparing them to 10,000k aqualine, 6000k GE Hungry, 20,000k osram and 10,000k coralife. The Iwasaki's also retain mor PAR/PPFD over time as compared to the other bulbs. They lost approx 29.4% strength over a 2-2 1/2 year period. This equates to a K drop from 6637 to 5394 in the 2-1/2 year period.
The only problem is that they tend to be yellow green. One question I have is will the 03 and 7100k, whiten the tank? I think it may based on this link of bulb comparisons http://www.carlosreef.com/bulb_comparison.htm
If you would like to read the article that made up my mind on bulb choice here they are. http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a.../1/default.asp http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a.../2/default.asp
You may also find the reflector article of intrest. This makes me wonder if a "spider" reflector is the right thing or not. http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a.../1/default.asp
They 96w pc's are being used due to the fact I have them in my current lighting setup and will not casue me to purchase any thing new other than bulbs.
What do you think?

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Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

[This message has been edited by Ltspd (edited 12-28-2000).]

Ltspd ~

I have been looking into this same issue for the past few weeks. I am convinced that power compact lighting will do little to change the yellowish/greenish appearance of 400w 6500K Iwasaki metal halides. I believe it would take at least 4x110w VHO actinics to make 2x400w 6500K Iwasaki's aesthetically pleasing.

Here is a pic of REAL BIG FISH's 150g tank (60"x24"x24"). He is using 400w 6500K Iwasaki's with 2x140w VHO actinics.




I have seen some tanks (in person & in pics) that use the 250w 6500K Iwasaki's with 4x110w VHO actinics and they looked crisp white... not yellowish at all. You might even be able to get by with only 2x110w VHO actinics.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Irrational Exuberance!

[This message has been edited by Ninong (edited 12-28-2000).]

The difference in pc acitinics and vho acitincs is tremendous. I use 2 400 watt 6500k and 2 140 watt vho acitincs on my tank and it gives it a crisp white look. I never could get the color right using pc's. I will try to take some pics tomorrow and post them so you can see what my tank looks like.

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Jeff

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffmot/index.html

WOW, thats yellowish green, yuk!
Ninong, what are your plans for bulbs/lighting. I was basing this off of the articles that I read. The 6500k, on paper were very balanced, powerful and longlasting, as well as reasonalbe inexpensive. Along with the picture from carlosreef.com of course they are 250w with 96w pc, but I really didnt think the extra wattage would make that much diffrence.
Personifer, I am interested in your pictures.
The reason I am staying with the pc's is because I have them now on my 55g and am very pleased with there performance. I have the bulbs, ballast, sockets, etc. It would seem a great wast of money to scrap them and go VHO. I could add a 3rd or even 4th pc to the hood, but is that necessary.
I guess what I am shooting for is a good MH bulb that will be inexpensive, long lasting, coral correct, and pleasing to the eye. I will use the 03 & 7100k pc along with these bulbs. And as usual, the more I research the more confused I become for the right answer, [img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img]

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Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

Ltspd ~

In this thread from yesterday, we get into a discussion of lighting: http://www.reefland.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000400-2.html

PopeShawnPaul reports that the "actinic" PCs he got from lampsnow.com are more actinic looking than the 7100K 'actinics' you usually find in the 96w size. If you're going with PC supplementation, you might want to try these.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Irrational Exuberance!

Hey, back at square 1, [img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img] Ok, I have ordered the PFO 400w dual ballast. My next purchase was going to be the bulbs for it. I have the pc bulbs, one 7100k and one 03 that I just ordered. All of this is trying ot ease into the larger tank, a few dollars at a time. The wife understands that better [img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img] Ok, I guess what I need is more links info to further confuse my confusion. The thing I hate about this is there is no "right or Wrong" just grey area...... Ninong, would you suggest looking at 10,000K mogul? I too, dont want a chiller in the picture and am hoping to tunnel fans through the hood to aleviate this. It may require (4)4" fans, 2 at one end blowing in and 2 at the other pulling out.
For my next hobby, I am considering quatam physics [img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img]

ps, where's PopeShawPaul at these days...... Is he posting elsewhere.
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Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

[This message has been edited by Ltspd (edited 12-29-2000).]

I'm a lot confused here ......Jeff said he's running the same lights as REAL BIG FISH....Why is Jeff's tank "crisp white" and RBF tank Pea green......I'm still going with the 400 watt 10K's

Well for what it's worth, I was in this same quandary for sometime before taking "The Leap of Faith". Anyway, I installed 250watt(not 400) Iwasaki 6500K w/ 03Actinic VHO's. The result is VERY nice! Not yellow at all when the MH and VHO's are on. As a matter of fact, I'm getting the same solution for my 135gal(only more lights of course). If you'd like to see a photo, I'll post one tonight. HTH

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Remember...Wherever you go...There you are.

[This message has been edited by Aragorn (edited 12-29-2000).]

I believe RBF may have 3x400w 6500K Iwasaki's and only 2x140w VHO actinics. It could be that if you really want to get the yellow out, you might need two VHO actinics for each 400w Iwasaki, and maybe only one VHO actinic for each 250w Iwasaki.

Right now, for reasons related to heat and appearance, I have pretty much eliminated 400w Iwasaki's from consideration for my tank. I would love to use them if I had enough VHOs to balance out the color, but then I would need a chiller.

I am trying to choose between two different German brands of 250w 10,000K HQI dbl-endeds run on German electronic ballasts with some moderate amount of actinic supplementation or 250w 6500K Iwasaki's run on <insert ballast du jour> with heavy VHO actinic supplementation.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]


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Irrational Exuberance!

I think the reason mine looks white instead of yellow is because I have the vho close to the water and I hang my 2 400 watt mh above the tank. This gives me an open top on my canopy and is probably why I have no heat problems.

Paul,

I tried many different bulbs and combinations before I found what I liked. You might consider getting 1 6500k and 1 10000k. Use your acitincs on the side you are using the 6500k.

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Jeff

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffmot/index.html

Jeff,
If the tank is 4ft long how would 1 6500k bulb on one side look with a 10000k on the other? I am really confused as to what is the best route. I really wish there were a site I could compare the looks of a tank side by side with diffrent combinations of bulbs.
Hows your aqua c working?, mine works well. The water temp is very cold (48deg) coming into the unit which supposivly creates more waste and slower production time. I am not sure what I am going to do about that if anything.


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Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

Paul,

The barracuda is working fine. I get more waste water with the cold weather also. I tried a lot of different lighting combos on my 90 gallon before I moved everything to my 155. At one time I ran a 12k on one side and a 6500k on the other. I used my 2 55 watt pc's on the side with the 6500k. It was blue on one side, white in the middle, and yellowish on the other end. I didn't like the 12k it was too blue for my tastes. I was trying not to use acitinics but I ended up buying an icecap vho ballast. I like the dawn/dusk affect and the corals really look great in just the acitincs. It brings back memories of the 70's with black lights and black light posters. I never could get that affect with pc acitincs. I was using the 7100k bulbs so maybe the 03 are better.

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Jeff

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffmot/index.html

[This message has been edited by Personifer (edited 12-29-2000).]

I hope I don't mix things up too much, but here I go. I have a JBJ lighting system with 220w of PC. I want to add 2-250w MH to my tank(60"L x 16"W x 24"H) and no chiller. I have 2-55w 7,100 Actinics and 2-55w 10,000 Daylights in the JBJ now. If I just add the 2-250w MH what K should look good - 6,000K or 10,000K?
Thanks for the info so far!!!

MyColorYellow I believe you would be better off going with the 10,000k. The 6500k with your other lights might look yellow. Of course if you like the yellow color go with the 6500k. The advantage of the 6500k are they are cheaper, and they last longer.

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Jeff

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeffmot/index.html

Ninong,
Have you looked into the HQI bulbs and ballast yet......From what I've read you need to use a UV sheild,cover with these lights, That's why there sold as pendants.

My iwaski without vho on looks white. My tank is acylic . My 20g tank is glass and looks green with just full spectrium NO lights. The glass and nutrients can play a part and the pics can make the colors appear different also. With my 2_250 iwaski and with just 2_110vho actinic it looks the same a using 10k in my tank.

Golfish ~

Yes, you positively MUST use a tempered glass UV shield with HQI bulbs. I'm not planning a DIY project, I'm looking at two different German fixtures. The first is the Aquaspacelight from www.ab-aqualine.de which is available from Champion Lighting. The 1200mm length (47.25") with 2x250w AB 10000 HQI dbl-ends (actually 13,000K) plus 2x24w Osram 'blue' PCs, with separate controls, runs $909 at Champion.

The other fixture I am considering is the System 260 Moonlight from www.giesemann.de in the same length, with 2x250w Ushio 10,000K HQI dbl-ends, plus 2 NO fluorescent actinics, plus a 15w incandescent blue moonlight that is computer controlled. I'm still trying to get a price on this one from their rep in N.Y.

I sent e-mails to both companies in Germany (ain't babel grand) and both companies claim ALL of their lighting fixtures are available in the U.S. Perry at Champion expects to have the AB-Aqualine Aquaspacelight fixtures sometime next month; he wasn't too sure about some of the other models--although their U.S. rep said anything could be special ordered in about six weeks.

I received an e-mail response from the U.S. rep of Giesemann in N.Y. telling me that he's "out of the office" till next week, and that he will be happy to set me up with a "local dealer" when he returns. Joaco got an excellent price quotation on the System 260 Moonlight from their German distributor but then he would have to wait for someone to bring it from Germany for him.

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Irrational Exuberance!

Ok guys, time for a personal opinion. Should I have went with the 400w bulbs? They will be in a enclosed hood that will have fans blowing in and out. The reason being is it appears that the 250w 6500k bulbs are less yellow and more easily "balanced" than the 400w. I have at my dispose (4) 96w pc's that I currently use on the 55g that I am planning on using in this setup (whenever that may be). If I used the (4) pc's as "blues" with the 2 400w I would end up with around 10w/g. I feel that this should balance out the yellow green but am afraid of the Heat issue then. Do I need that much wattage (I know it is more PAR than wattage). If I went with 250w, 6500k and the (4)pc's I would be in the 7 watt range.
I thought I was settled on the issue yesterday [img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img] [img]/ubb/confused.gif[/img] [img]/ubb/spineyes.gif[/img]
I guess it would be easier now to send the dual ballast back to PA and swap then set the tank on fire later [img]/ubb/eek.gif[/img]

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Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

[This message has been edited by Ltspd (edited 12-29-2000).]

Ltspd ~

Let's look at the problem areas for the 400w 6500K Iwasaki's with PC supplementation:

1. You aren't going to like the appearance.

2. You may end up with more heat than you bargained for both in the tank and in the room.

3. To address problem #1 would probably require 4 VHO actinics (4 PCs won't cut it).

4. For reasons of aesthetics, you MIGHT want to consider 400w 10,000K bulbs with your 400w PFO ballast and your 4 PC actinics. The 400w 10,000K bulbs would have less PAR than the 400w Iwasaki's but about the same as the 250w Iwasaki's.

There, how's that? Clear as mud! [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

N I N [img]/ubb/online.gif[/img] N G

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Irrational Exuberance!

Ninong I beleive you are right. I was basing the decesion off of paper facts and the pictures on Carlosreef. I really wish I had the means to try before I buy the bulbs. Man wouldnt that make things easy. My original plans were to use the (2)400w er's and (2) pc's above the tank and put the other (2)pc's over the sump. I plan on having LR/LS in the sump and growing macro algea. I think this will keep from craming yet another tank full of LR and having no room. The LR in the sump (refigium) will keep level up and allow more space for the fish and corals. I have that set up now, just a lot of rock in the main tank also. Where has been best price MO you have found on 10K bulbs? Any recomendation on manf? I think you have said you are going with German HQI double ended. http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch...?Screen<img src="/ubb/raspberry.gif">ROD&Store_Code[img]/ubb/raspberry.gif[/img]A&Product_Code=10K-400WG&Category_Code=Hbulbs
Above is link for PA's 10K Ushio Brand. I wonder if they are cheaper in Germany? [img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img]
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Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

[This message has been edited by Ltspd (edited 12-30-2000).]