comments on 65k's

[golfish]

I was able to go out and see Steve Elias's (Evets from Reefcentral) tank today. What a great guy and a great setup he has. I'm still in AWWWWW. He has a standard (this tank is FAR from standard) 150gal running 2x250 65K's with a 400watt 20K in between the 65Ks. The 65k on the right is ran by a PFO MH ballast the one on the left a IceCap ballast. Both bulbs are 16 months old. The bulb on the right(PFO) was a lot brighter than the bulb on the left (IC) I MEAN A LOT. The bulb on the left (IC) seemed a little more bluer than the right but I'm thinking this might be because it was weaker and the 400 watt 20K was drowning IT out. I was happy to see how the 65k's looked just by them self's and They look GREAT with the 2x96 watt PC's.

Either way I like the 65k's and will be getting them soon. Unless Ninong can convince me to get the HQI'S[img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Mark

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Tank site is still under constuction.
http://members.aol.com/golfish49/index.html

[Ltspd]

According to the article in the Marine Fish and Reef 2001 annual what you just said was proven. They tested Magnettic, MV, IC & blueline on a 250w Iwasaki 6500k bulb. The Magnetic blew them out of the water. The next best was the MV which produced 15% less PPFD and 20% less power. The next was the Icecap and last was the blueline. The only real advantage was input current of the bluelinw was .4 amps less draw than the others. The next best draw was the magnetic. Input wattage had the magnetic being the highest, pulling 308w and the blueline the least at 252w. This article goes into payback calculations of each ballast compared to the Magnetic. From the way I read the artilce there is only one logical choice, the magnetic dual PFO.

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Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

[PerryinCA]

Yup, but then again Harkers study showed different. IMO neither one solved a whole lot. Its pretty much impossible to get a true idea from one two, or even five studies simply because bulbs, and ballasts perform differently, constantly. Even two of the same product will often vary in output. Also, the first Icecaps 250w tested outperformed the solid, but at a loss of countability. People who buy 3 lamps of the same model, and two are blue and one is white just attests to the fact that you can't say thats the end-all review because of the changes in production and lack of solid quality control (which sadly lacks too much in these areas). I will admit though, it makes the PFO look good. Personally, I have used my Icecap next to a standard transformer ballast (wasn't a PFO, but a CSL) and the Icecap was very clearly the brighter of the two. So for now thats what I am going to stick with, and will move to the IC 400w if they ever come out.

-Perry

[Ltspd]

I agree with Perry on the fact that everything is diffrent in diffrent situations. I belive the article authors had to go through 5 or 6 IC to get 1 that worked? And that one was sent back to them from the Manf. The 400w's were a diffrent story. The magnetic did not perform as well as the others, but they were all very close. Within 5-6% of one another. There has also been a lenghty discussion of the markings of the Iwasaki 6500k bulbs and what ot request or stay away from. Perry is right when he said it is a shame that better QC and equilvance between bulbs can not be acheived. I dont rhink you will go wrong with the 6500k Iwasakis unless you have the cash to go to double ended Germans with a UV sheild.

I just re-read the article and the authors said " None of the ballast performed as well as the magnetic ballast using this lamp (6500k)More specifically, the electronic ballasts seemed to signifiicantly underdrive the lamp. The IceCap ballasts previously available for this lamp were reported by several users to be unstable, and this was our experience as well.
The first ballast we tested was successful in lighting only one of the five lamps we tested with considerable flicker. This ballast, however did provide lamp output with 25% more PPFD than the magnetic."
The article goes on to say that the replacement IC ballast was more stable but underdrove the lamps.
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Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

[This message has been edited by Ltspd (edited 01-14-2001).]

[golfish]

I have read so much about these lights and ballast that I didn't know what to think. I did know I wasn't going to use IC for the reason's stated by Paul above (even the ballast Sanjay got had to be sent back to IC).. I wasn't there to see Steve switch out the bulbs so its true that it could be the bulbs (I would say about a 2% chance) He's going to be replacing them in a month or two.

My biggest concern was the color of the 65Ks. I was either going to use 400 watt 10ks or 250 watt 65ks. I did'nt want to start out with the 400's becuase of the heat. I was very happy with the color both ballast put out.

Mark

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Tank site is still under constuction.
http://members.aol.com/golfish49/index.html

[This message has been edited by golfish (edited 01-14-2001).]

[Ltspd]

I think if you get the 6500k Iwasaki's with the correct marking you will be ok as far as un-yellow, the marking is DL. I know tht you will need blue supplementation along with the 6500k's. I know I saw a post from Ninong on the bulb comparisons for the 6500k and the supplementation. I really liked the light it produced with blue bulbs. I am not far behind you in ordering some 250w 6500k's Iwasaki's for my new system. I have decided to run (2)250w mh 6500k's, (2) 96w pc's, 1-7100k, 1-03 actinic, and (2) 48" VHO bulbs, probally 10kers.

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Paul C
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Einstein

[PerryinCA]

I think most people who see the 25w Iwasaki's will like the coloration. To my eye they are a very pure white after the initial 100 or so hours. For the output, its a great idea to go with 250 EYE as opposed to the 400 10k. Especially with the enery "crisis" here in my area. BUT...as soon as I have a little spare change, I am ripping out the EYE for Ushio HQI lamps. Probably in 2 weeks. I'll use the Iwasakis for backup or something. After seeing the HQI in person, I don't know why I didn't get those to begin with. I think they deserve much more thought than people give them. Output, longetivity, color....it has it all, well save for the somewhat steep price tag.

-Perry

[JG]

Perry,

Can HQI bulbs be burned on IceCap ballasts? HQI bulbs reguire some kind of filter right for the UV?

I was actualy gonna go with the Iwasaki's, but these 10k AquaConnect bulbs seem VERY intense....to the point that I'm really limited to what LPS I can add to the tank. Already fried two brains and a blastomussa that were on the sandbed.....really miss that blastomussa(RIP[img]/ubb/frown.gif[/img])

Anyway, here's a pic of my tank (58 Oceanic)with two 250w AquaConnect bulbs (IC ballasts), and 285w of VHO actinic (IC ballast)

[PerryinCA]

Hey John~ Yea the Icecaps can. Whether or not they'll have to be tuned..I don't know, but it'd be well worth it. You do need a UV filter, but that can be as easy as a peice of lexan over the tank, or a peice of tempered glass with UV treatment. You can find both at the LHS. Even after the 10% loss when filtered through the glass, the HQI has almot 20% more PPFD than the Iwasaki. Thats my kind of numbers. I'll mail any right now and see what he says about the ballasts [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

-Perry

[golfish]

Paul,
You don't NEED supplemental lighting for the 65k's..Want yes, need no. Like I said the color wasn't that bad, but I'll run my 4x55watt actinic PC's[img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

Perry,
I'm with you on the HQI lights. I know Ninong is looking in that direction. I e-mailed Marine Depot a few days ago about them. They look like a sweet lamp but cost some major bucks and you just can't throw them in the hood like a PFO retro kit. I'm not even sure if you can mount the pendants in a hood.......I guess you could if it were tall enough.

JG,
Yes they need some kind UV protection. I guess that's why they come in a pendant. I don't think an IC ballast will fire them. I don't even think they make one.......... That's another reason I don't want the 400's. I'm affraid I'll fry all the corals I have now[img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

Mark

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Tank site is still under constuction.
http://members.aol.com/golfish49/index.html

[This message has been edited by golfish (edited 01-14-2001).]

[PerryinCA]

Icecap does make a 150w HQI kit, so I'm sure they have the capability. You can buy the double ended sockets in many places. You can probably get them directly from IC, but don't quote me on that cause I'm not sure.

-Perry

[JG]

Now that I think about it, I'm actualy pretty sure the model *P* ballast (the one I have) will fire HQI bulbs without having to be retuned.

[Ninong]

Well, there's nothing about it on the TAAM, Inc. website, but they haven't updated their site in some time.

I tried Brenner.de but got a German camera shop. [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Later,

Ninong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

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Irrational Exuberance!

[PerryinCA]

Marine Depot has exclusive rights to the AC lamp. I am unsure of the manufacturer, but I did ask Ken a few months ago (right when they came out) if anyone else sold them and he said no. According the the product label, they are 11k. Andy actually told me about them when they had first begun testing, and that was the first I had ever heard of them. John, still have those pics I sent you with the different lights lined up?

-Perry

[JG]

They say 11k, but they're definetly are not 11k's. To me, they actualy look like a mix between an Iwasaki and a 10k Ushio.

Perry, nope, I can't seem to find that pic. I remember it was like 5 bulbs lined up next to each other

[PerryinCA]

Hmm, thats cool. The actual CCT of the Iwasaki after burn in is like 8000. I'm willing to bet the AC is brighter than the AB and Ushio if thats the case.

I did shoot an e-mail over to Andy about the HQI. For some reason I remember the same thing you do about the MHP Icecaps. I don't think they make a designated HQI ballast, but I have contacted him so we'll have to just wait and see. Man the Vikings are getting smacked hard....not something I expected. Talk about a decent year for New York Sports. Just wait till the *gulp* bay area takes 'em out! [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Ninong]

Perry ~

Well, I just checked Marine Depot's site and it is similar to many others in that the only information provided is 10,000K German. Then it goes on to list 150w HQI double-ended and 250w HQI double-ended, plus 175w, 250w and 400w mogul base lamps all under the same heading of 10,000K German without even indicating whether they are all coming from the same manufacturer or from two different manufacturers.

Not exactly helpful if you're looking for a Ushio 250w 10,000K HQI double-ended lamp because you like the test results that Sanjay reported. I have found only one online vendor who actually specifies Ushio in the description of his HQI double-ended lamps. So, with most online vendors, you have no way of knowing if you are getting an AB lamp, or an Osram, or a Ushio, or whatever. And they all test out at different Kelvin temperatures.

It is really very frustrating! [img]/ubb/mad02.gif[/img]

Ninong

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Irrational Exuberance!

[Ninong]

Perry ~

I believe the 250w 6500K Iwasaki lamp that Sanjay reported on tested out at 7457K, the Ushio 250w 10,000K double-ended tested at 11,723K, and the AB 10000--which I have not seen an independent test on--is reported by the manufacturer to be an actual 13,000K.

N I N [img]/ubb/online.gif[/img] N G

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Irrational Exuberance!

[PerryinCA]

Well I am really not too worried about online vendors as I'll get mine from AC, but I do agree that the companies should provide at least brand name information of the products they sell. They would never try to sell just a "1000 GPH American pump." They are always gonna have a brand name with that stuff, so why not with lamps?

That CCT is probably right, I was taking my info from Aqua. Frontiers which I think is slightly outdated.

-Perry

[This message has been edited by PerryinCA (edited 01-14-2001).]

[Ninong]

Perry ~

Can you imagine having to order a 250hp American car, without being told whether it's a Ford or a Chevy? [img]/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]

N I N [img]/ubb/cool.gif[/img] N G

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Irrational Exuberance!