Shocking!!!!!! Electrical question

[mr9iron]

I was wondering how many of you use grounding probes and GFIC? I was doing some reading and realized that I have neither. I really think it would be a good idea aleast to install the GFIC for safety reasons. What do you reefers think?

------------------
Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round. Anything different is a bad thing......

[onei]

Without the grounding probe in the aquarium, the fish in the aquarium are realy suseptable t olateral line syndrome.
This is when stray electricity in the aquarium acually hits the the fishes lateral sensor line on the side of its body.
Angels and tangs are really effected by stray electrical currents in the aquarium.


remember, all good thing come to those who wait.
onei

[lineman]

I believe in using ground probes. The first fish I had was going through stages of looking good and looking like it was stressed out(loss of color and not eating very well). I checked everything and read as much stuff as I could and finally found some stuff on stray voltage. I have an electical background and starting thinking on how to check to see if this was the problem and sure enough I had voltage in the tank. The way I checked this , I took a voltmeter one probe in the ground on a outlet(if you don't know the small round one)and the other one to the water and then I started unplugging stuff one at a time till there a zero reading on the voltmeter. My problem was my heater. I replaced it and installed a ground probe for an insurance policy. Fish looked great after doing that. I suggest to anyone if your not comfortable working with electricity hire someone or find someone who is. As far as GFCI's go yes. I don't believe in taking chances with water and electricity. Test them every once and a while, my dad had some install on the outside of his house and when the inspector came they all failed. Basically they just worked like a regular outlet. I don't know if it was a factory defect or just failed over time. That my thoughts on the subject. Sorry for being so long winded.

[Bojinx]

I look at it like this... You can pick up a grounding probe for 20-30 bucks and a GFCI outlet for under 10 bucks. The insurance that these two items will give is well worth the money, IMO. I don't trust water and 'lectric either [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

When that GFCI trips, you'll be glad it did. Especially if your hands were in the water at the time.

------------------
jImMy

"Watching fate as it flows down the path we have chose"
"...Never thought to question 'Why'?"

pAz LeNcHaNtIn... oh how i wish...

[fishonly]

I use both a grounding probe and a GFCI and I think everybody should. It's minimal considering what you could lose otherwise.

The only drawback is, I have a portable GFCI (since I live in an apt.) and everytime the electricity goes off it trips and if I don't come home for a while then the pumps can be off for quite some time. [img]/ubb/frown.gif[/img]

------------------
Shelly

[Ltspd]

Use both a gnd probe and a GFCI, you wont be sorry.

------------------
------------------------
Paul C
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler.
Einstein

[Ceorl]

For more information than you probably have time for, see: http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin...threadid=17120

I just researched the heck out of this and will repeat my conclusions here (edited based on subsequent posts). I am not an electrician, but these guidelines seem to be accepted by the people I judge to be the experts (see the thread):

background:
* A "leak" or "stray voltage" is voltage coming from faulty equipment, failed insulation, etc.
* "Induced voltage" is from magnetic fields created by normal powerheads, ballasts, lights, etc.
* Farms and older homes & apartments may have a situation where the voltage of the neutral wire is not at zero, even though it should be and is usually assumed to be at zero voltage.

1. Human safety: USE A GFCI, period. NO EXCEPTIONS!
2. It's best if there are no other devices on the same circuit as the GFCI
3. Grounding probe: A GFCI will trip off when there is a "leak", probe or no probe - a grounding wire is not required.
4. A grounding probe is not required for GFCI functioning because a GFCI reacts to a difference in current between the other two wires (hot and neutral); it senses the "leak".
5. Grounding Probe: Will assist a GFCI to trip off in the case of a "leak" by providing a sure/good path back to the electrical panel for the "leak". Without the path to ground from the probe, the "leak" might not "flow" until your hand is placed in the tank - you might get a brief shock but the GFCI will trip off quickly (if it is functional).
6. It is probably a poor assumption that an induced voltage would result in a tank of uniform voltage. Thus, if one assumes this voltage gradient is harmful to livestock, one would be prudent to put these magnetic-field causing devices (powerhead motors, ballasts, lamps, etc.) in the sump, further from the livestock.
7. By the same logic as 6., it would make sense to put the grounding probe in the sump and as close to the equipment as possible. And for the equipment in the tank, put the probe close to that.
8. If you have a situation where your ground is not at zero volts, i.e. the neutral wire coming into your home from the power company has an impressed voltage, putting a ground probe into the tank might create a voltage in the tank that was not previously there.
9. If the situation in 8. is the case, and the impressed voltage is high enough, you feel a tingle when you put your hand in the tank because you are providing a path from the non-zero neutral wire voltage at the probe to true ground at your feet.

A shorter version is:

For human safety, use a GFCI device for all your electrical equipment, period, you're a fool not to.

If the GFCI trips off, you probably have faulty equipment that needs to be identified and replaced or otherwise fixed.

If you are in a modern house or apartment, and are close to the utility's transformer, your neutral wire is probably at zero volts as it should be. No guarantees, though.

If your neutral wire is at zero volts, use a grounding probe because it will increase the human safety and also help eliminate any induced voltages that might harm livestock.

If your neutral wire is not at zero volts, using a grounding probe might not be a good idea because you might actually add harmful voltage to the tank (and the GFCI will work anyway if there is stray voltage). On the other hand, the probe might help because any added voltage might be less than the induced voltage it gets rid of.

If you are worried about induced voltages from your equipment, place as much equipment in the sump as possible.

If you use a grounding probe, place it close to the equipment causing the induced voltage, i.e. the sump if the equipment is placed there.

(I don't have any confirmation on this one) If you are really worried about induced voltages, multiple grounding probes make sense (in the sump and near the powerheads in the tank).

Simple, huh? [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

The shortest version I can come up with is:
* GFCI is for human safety: use one or you are a fool.
* Grounding probes are for livestock safety: they may or may not be helpful depending on your exact circumstances
* It is not easy to figure out what your exact circumstances are. A voltmeter can offer help but you need to have a good understanding of what is going on.
* Do not use a grounding probe without also using a GFCI device

What was the original question? [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

PS, one more thing, if a GFCI trips while you're away, all the pumps and powerheads on that GFCI shut down. So if you can, use two circuits with a GFCI on each, if one trips the other keeps some circulation going.


[This message has been edited by Ceorl (edited 03-08-2001).]

[vtec si]

I use both on all my tanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VTEC

[Joaco]

Originally posted by vtec si:
I use both on all my tanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VTEC

Ditto.

Joaco



------------------
My webpage Updated 28th February 2001

[Joaco]

Originally posted by Bojinx:
You can pick up a grounding probe for 20-30

I paid $12 for each of mine, made of titanium, at www.reeffanatic.com

Joaco



------------------
My webpage Updated 28th February 2001

[Bojinx]

Originally posted by Joaco:
I paid $12 for each of mine, made of titanium, at www.reeffanatic.com

Joaco

No doubt... Mine came from the LFS before i 'discovered' online shopping [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

------------------
jImMy

"Watching fate as it flows down the path we have chose"
"...Never thought to question 'Why'?"

pAz LeNcHaNtIn... oh how i wish...

[scubadude]

Well im no electrical engineer, but after reading this post you guys sold me [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]....besides for the first time after 9 mos. of my tank being setup I go to feed the tank this morning and guess what happens.....All the hairs on my head stood straight up [img]/ubb/eek.gif[/img] and 1.21 jiggawatts went through my body...j/j...but really i did get shocked when I put my hand in the tank.....then panic set in....I didnt even look at my fish at first....I just started unplugging stuff....then sticking my finger back in the water [img]/ubb/eek3.gif[/img]
luckily the first 2 PH's seem to take away the jolt in my fingers when i put them in the water....I looked at everyone in the tank...they look ok...so I automatically come back here and start researching this....My question Is this I have 2 MaxiJets one is a 600 the other is a 400 and from what I have tested they both are leaking stray voltage....I thought now thats odd...both of them? any of you guys have probs with these Maxijets? or did i just have the luck of the draw? FWIW im gonna be installing a GFCI today for sure on my main circuit and there is another circuit that runs one of my MH Lights and the fans (no equipment submerged in the water) Does this one really need to be on GFCI?? its behind the entertainment center and would be a real booger to get to. I will also install a Grounding probe can Im sure I can get one at Radio shack...im not gonna sit here and order one online unless you guys tell me I can get a really good one....Im not concerned about saving a couple of bucks....My main concern is to get my tank much safer as quick as I can...are these titanium grounding probes available at Radio Shack or is this something I need to order OL? ....Help me out here guys my tank is full of corals and fish and I do NOT want to shock these guys! Thank you

------------------
Rocky
http://www.geocities.com/scubadud3/reef.html

Forget about World Peace.....Visualize Using Your Turn Signal !

[This message has been edited by scubadude (edited 03-09-2001).]

[mr9iron]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I thought I would share this with you guys though. My dad just happens to be a Electrician and he offered a solution. I was worried about the possibility of a power surge tripping my GFIC and me not being home I wouldnt have circulation in my tank for several hours. That could be a really bad thing, although Im not sure how long it would take for my o2 levels to drop to a dangerous level. Well, Dad is coming over to design a set up for me to alleviate this problem. I will give the basics but understand that im no electrician. He said that he would use a double poll switch on a seperate circut. When I want to maintenance my tank, I flip the swithc down and its on a GFIC so that I wont get shocked. When im done i flip the switch back up and it will operate normally, that way i dont have to worry about being gone and not being able to reset the gfic when we have a power surge.


------------------
Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round. Anything different is a bad thing......

[Ceorl]

I am neither an Electrician nor a reefkeeper (yet!), I'm a Mechanical Engineer who did a bunch of research, but ...

mr9iron, that seems reasonable, but realize that if an electrical leak happens while you're away, you're counting on the circuit breaker to protect your livestock. Also, (duh!) don't make the mistake of ignoring a GFCI that trips.

scubadude, LOL! glad you're OK ... That's pretty weird that both should fail, seemingly at the same time ... beats me what's going on ... maybe repeat the experiment to be sure of your conclusion? Like the expert 'badgers' said about grounding probes, it's just a wire, it either conducts electricity or not. The issue with the quality of probes is any effect the metal might have on the water, so I wouldn't put in a probe that wasn't at least 316 stainless, but titanium is probably better for saltwater exposure. Even better would be "Inconel" or other high-nickel content alloy, but I dunno if such is available.

HTH,
Bob

[mr9iron]

Cerol, Thanks for the advice!!!!!!

mr9iron, that seems reasonable, but realize that if an electrical leak happens while you're away, you're counting on the circuit breaker to protect your livestock. Also, (
duh!) don't make the mistake of ignoring a GFCI that trips.

And by the way, I would not ignore the fact that the GFIC trips, thats why I want it installed for my protection and my livestocks . Also I would rather count on the circut breaker to protect my livestock for the most part becuase where I live we fall victim to power surges quite often. I really dont want to lose my critters due to the fact I was unable to reset my GFIC. Thanks again

[This message has been edited by mr9iron (edited 03-09-2001).]

[jmick01]

I too use a grounding probe not so much for the fish but for me! I dont want to have a scubadude experience. I only have one question, doesnt any good power strip have a gfci built in it??? Or is this a different type of interrupt??

JMM

------------------
Remember Fish are alive when we get them, lets keep it that way!!!

[Ceorl]

Good question ...... I'm guessing if the strip has a reset button it's for a circuit breaker, not GFCI. Anyone else?

[jmick01]

OK I'll show my non electrical knowledge, but what is the difference between a gfci and a circuit breaker???

JMM

------------------
Remember Fish are alive when we get them, lets keep it that way!!!

[Ceorl]

I'm back from a weekend trip ....
A circuit breaker, like those in your main electrical panel, are like fuses, they turn off if too much current flows thru them.

A GFCI (aka GFI) measures the current in the two wires to the outlet(s); if the currents are different from each other by more than, uh, 400 milli-amps, the GFCI trips off the power.

The first protects against a device drawing more power than it should ever draw (a "short-circuit"). Prevents fires.
The second protects against a "leak" - if the currents are different, it is assumed the missing current is going thru a human. Prevents electrocution.

[jmick01]

Ceorl,
Thanks for the clarification.

JMM

------------------
Remember Fish are alive when we get them, lets keep it that way!!!