Mini reef with 400 watters? Can it be done?

[bt28]

I am thinking about downsizing my 38 gallon reef to a 10 gallon mini reef, and just keeping my choice coral pieces. On my 38 gallon hood, which is rather tall and home-built, I have an open back, and a high-powered fan aimed at my 400 watt metal halide, an automatic water top off-system (Which I could hook up to the 10 gallon) and have never had a problem with heat. The temperature never raises more than about a degree or so. Now then, the hood is rather tall, and I am thinking about building a similar style hood for the 10 gallon. My questions are as follows:

1. On a 10 gallon, with the same type of ventilation/fan, would I have a problem with heat if I cranked up my fan to full blast?

2. If I had a "dual" 400 watt 10K system under my hood of a 10 gallon mini-reef (Probably unheard of, but I'm willing to try anything), what would happen if one placed a 10K Ushio within 2 inches of a bluer 10K Blueline bulb? Since the tank is so small, would it still have the 50/50 effect, or would the width of the arc on both bulbs make a blending effect?

I know, I know. I feel like Dr. Frankenstein.

[asmith]

I am sure that it can be done, but it seems like major overkill to me. a single 400 watt bulb would give you 40 watts per gallon. If you could manage the water temperatures you would be evaporating a lot of water each day which could lead to large swings in salinity. 2 400 watt bulbs would make things even worse. That would be more light than even the most light loving SPS and Clams could use, and could cause them more harm than good. If I were you I would buy a single 175 Halide and supplement with NO actinic bulbs if needed. The money you would save on your ultiliy bill would quickly make up the cost of the new bulbs and ballast and would still provide plenty of light for SPS and Clams.

JMO,
Andrew

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I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart. e.e.cummings

[Personifer]

I agree with asmith. Yes, it could be done but why would you want to?

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Jeff

http://www.homestead.com/jeffsreef/index1.html

[scubadude]

yeah...ill piggyback on the above 2 post...but one thing that I would add is that if you did go with just one 175watt MH i would go with that only but I would make it a high kelvin rating like 12k or even 20k this would take care of the actinic and you would still have 17.5 watts per gallon which should be ample for SPS and clam.



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Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

[thezookeeper]

I have a 10 gallon microreef. I use 64 watts of PC. You will have ENORMOUS amounts of evaporation if you choose to use MH. I have a cooling fan and ample ventilation on my custom canopy (we made it ourselves) and I still have in excess of 1/2 gallon of evaporation per day. If you have a remedy for this AND can keep a tank so small the correct temperature(which is also a major concern), then I'd go with a 175 at MOST. This is just my experience. HTH

[img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
JoAnne

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That which does not kill us makes us stronger...like lifting those salt buckets.

[srgtkoons]

Youd kill anything you put in that tank. I even think a 175 watt MH is overkill.

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I have the mind of a 5 year old and own a fire extinquisher you cant imagine the things i do.

[bt28]

Well, I keep hearing of people who do things that apparently "can't be done" and get spectacular results. The reason I want to go with a 400 watter is that, well, it's what I have already! As for the hood, if I need to I can make it extra tall. I know of someone on the net who has a 175 watter, and has it 1 foot above his 10 gallon tank. Also, he uses no fans, but has an open back. Not even one degree swing in temperature. Probably because of the height. Whatever the case, I will be using Icecap automatic adjust fans. Anyway, as for water evaportation, I have a HUGE plastic garbage can full of RO water that I use for top-off via an automatic doser, which I have been using for my 38 gallon. I think I'm going to try it and see what happens. As for the two bulb theory, what would happen if two MH's were mounted parallel to one another and one was a different tint? On a tank as small as a 10 gallon, because it has such a small area, would the colors blend, or would you still get a 50-50 effect?

Brent

[Personifer]

My guess is the colors would blend in that small of an area. If you do this I would be interested in seeing some pics.

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Jeff

http://www.homestead.com/jeffsreef/index1.html

[thezookeeper]

Well, good luck to you. I, personally, would not even want to risk the possibility of putting that much lighting over any tank, no matter what the inhabitants were. I understand what you mean as far as other people have success with certain things, yet others say it can't be done. I do hope that you will not put BOTH the 400 watt bulbs on this small of a tank=800 watts. Perhaps I am misunderstanding. If you do that, it would be ridiculous. This is my opinion and people will do whatever they want in the end no matter what others say. So all I can say is good luck to you and I will hope that everything lives happily ever after.

[img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
JoAnne

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That which does not kill us makes us stronger...like lifting those salt buckets.

[thezookeeper]

I see now what you meant by dual 400 watt MH. It sounds like a double ended bulb. Disregard my 800 watt add up. I understand we are talking 400 watts only. Well, not only...but you know what I mean.

[img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
JoAnne

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That which does not kill us makes us stronger...like lifting those salt buckets.

[scubadude]

LMAO 800watts over a 10gal tank....boiling water baby!! [img]/ubb/lol.gif[/img] [img]/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

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Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

[PerryinCA]

I think that 400w would be great for a 10 gal SPS tank. WPG means NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. There are 3 important factors in lights. 1) Inhabitants 2) depth 3) spread. This is provided that temp/topoff can be controlled. A open Pendant 10" over a 10 gallon would be fine. Due to the spread, I think 2 would be somewhat pointless (although I would avoid the term overkill).

If you have a acropora 5" underwater in a 180gallon tank, what makes that situation any different from a 10 gallon tank? Nothing.

To say that you'd kill everything in the tank is nonsense. You could use a 1000w MH over a 10 gallon full of mushrooms if you acclimated correctly, and were careful with light height, and not lose a shroom.

You wouldn't be the first person with 400 over a tank that size. I have a friend that has a 7 gal bowfront with a 250w HQI, and it looks great.

Now with that said, is that much light needed, most likely not. Will it be detrimental, most likely not.

Keep in mind open-top will evap less than one with hood and fan.
-Perry

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Some call it evolution,
And others call it God.
Each In His Own Tongue (1908)
William Herbert Carruth 1859-1924

[Fcamdog]

Why??? Why down size to a tank that will be harder to keep? It's rare for people to ask about downsizing, sometimes we have to. Like moving or different finances but I can't see a huge difference between a 38g and 10g that justifies the move. Keeping only your choice corals in a smaller system will hamper them. What would you think if you woke up one day and your house was one third of the size when you went to sleep? This reminds me of people that cram 20 african cichlids into a 40g to "cut down on aggression" and have some variety. Pick your favorites, but give them a nice "home", or at least keep the one they are in, and I am guessing, doing well in. Good luck with your tanks.

[PerryinCA]

Fcam,

Some Dorms and apartments wil allow nothing bigger than x-gal. Sometimes the x is 10. I don't know if thats what bt is doing, but thats an example.

He didn't ask if anyone thought he should do it, only if it could be done. We all tend to stray from true question asked (yes, even I'm not perfect [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]). I wouldn't recommend keeping a tank that small, but a great tank with that much light can and has been done.

bt28 "or would the width of the arc on both bulbs make a blending effect?"

I think they would blend togther.

M2C,

Perry

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Some call it evolution,
And others call it God.
Each In His Own Tongue (1908)
William Herbert Carruth 1859-1924

[Drew]

HI,

I agree with Perry. If that's what you got use it. 400 watts is not going to do anything to your creatures. It doesn't matter what size tank it is. It is still a 400 watt light. The watt per gallon measurement is the worst thing to ever hit the aquarium hobby. It is totally useless. If the 400 is in a hood I would be concerned with heat. If it is a pendant you should have no problems at all.

Later
Drew

[thezookeeper]

I guess through proper acclimation any lighting is possible, then. With a pendant, heating would not be much of a problem at all. I never knew that if you have open tops you have less evaporation. Thank you!

[img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
JoAnne

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That which does not kill us makes us stronger...like lifting those salt buckets.

[Ironreef]

if you control the heat and have a top off a 10g with 400w should be fine. But with 400w and 2-3gal of evaporation(maybe) wouldn't be good without an auto topoff.

[bt28]

Wow--I never knew how one of my questions would cause so much controversy! Anyway, here's my take on the situation:

My current 38 gallon has 50 pounds of live sand (Deeep sand band), 60 pounds of live rock, and then of course you have to account for the tank, other corals, water "in" the tank, the stand, and the hood. All of that is HEAVY and BULKY. Basically, in August I will be moving to another state. From Illinois to Florida. In addition, until I get settled into a permanent job I will have contract jobs which will probably mean a move after each year. A 38 gallon, no matter how small it seems those those of you who have 250 gallon setups, is still a little bit of a pain to haul around everywhere when compared to a 10 gallon. 4 times as much. Now if I was in a long-time position, or retired or something, then yes, a 38-gallon would be GREAT! But I haven't attained either of those goals yet.
As for the 400 watt idea, yes, the main thing is to use everything that I can from my 38 gallon tank for my 10 gallon tank and sell the rest. I realize that, the main problem will be cooling. But I plan on having the MH probably about 9-12 inches from the top of the water, have an open-back hood, and have two icecap automatic sensor fans on the back of the hood. Top-off-water will be done automatically by a top-off water system from a very large resovoir.
The reason for my "two" 400 watt bulb idea is simple. I have an Ushio 10K running, which I love as far as intensity goes. However, whenever I started running it I was getting some Cyano. Before you say, "But wait, that can't be the culprit, or It must have been the intensity change", read on. I noticed that, before Ushio, or pre-ushio, I conquered a Cyano problem going from these LOA lights I was using over to the Blueline MH bulb. However, when I changed from the Blueline over to an Ushio the Cyano problems started. Nothing was any different than it had been. 5 ppm of nitrates, no other changes, like it's always been. Well, then I asked around and everyone told me that it must have been the intensity change. That's what I thought, until now. A friend of mine received a MH kit about 2 to 2 1/2 weeks ago, and he originally had a power compact setup. He was running PC 6.5K's and actinics, they were relatively new bulbs, and his readings were incredibly similar to what mine are now. 5 ppm (Or is it thousand--can't remember) of nitrates and he also had cyano. Well, I let him borrow my extra Blueline 10K bulb to put in his new MH setup, and within 2 weeks his cyano was gone.
Therefore, I am truly wondering if that extra "blue" that the Bluelines have, which is quite apparent by sight, really helps to fight off the red wavelengths which the Cyano uses. Now, don't get me wrong. I LOVE the Ushio bulbs because of their intensity. I have a massively increased growth rate of everything, including my SPS's, yet I also have Cyano. So, I am looking for the best of both worlds. A LOT of extra blue, which the Blueline can provide, "and" intensity, which the Ushio can provide. So I was thinking--two 400 watt 10K bulbs, such as the blueline and ushio, mixed because they would be close and over a small area. As for why I don't want to use supplemental actinics under my new hood that I will be making for my 10 gallon? Not enough room for any, because I would want VHO's, and I tried power compact actinics on a nano once and cyano sprouted like crazy. Many people believe that actinic PCs are not true actinics, and I also believe this as well.
Well, that's my story......
PS--People who have been reefing for a while, such as Spasse, PerryinCA, etc., since I am in the pre-planning stages for my hood, and want to use 1 or 2 400K's, how high do you suggest I make the hood over the 10 gallon so that A: I won't risk scorching (Yes, I have SPS, although I don't know if they would have much of a problem. They're at the top of my 38 gallon now under a 400 watter) and so B: that I will have room to work when I lift open a front hood-flap, and C: So that heat will not be as "much" of a problem?

Brent

[wgscott]

I have about 75 W of PC on my 10 gal aquarium and I find it is a major chore to keep it topped off. With 8 W/gal on my 55 gal I am having problems with corals outgrowing that tank. Keep in mind the more light, the more photosynthesis and coral growth. Too much of a good thing can create problems.

[PerryinCA]

Honestly, I would first recommend an open pendant. If thats not possible, make the hood so the light is 12" from the water (about 15-16" for normal mogul base). Its easier to lower the lights in this case than it is to raise them should you make the canopy too short. I would also recommend using a hole saw, or sabre saw and putting on of the icecap fans blowing across the water on the side of the canopy. Other than that, sounds like you have most everything covered.

-Perry

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Some call it evolution,
And others call it God.
Each In His Own Tongue (1908)
William Herbert Carruth 1859-1924