Ninong,

Coming back to the O2 output vs wavelength, the reason I wasn't overly concerned about it was that O2 production is associated with carbohydrate production, and although important up to a baseline, it is nitrogenous production that I believe to be significant for colouration (i.e. the pigments are proteins).

This may explain why warmer bulbs give better growth (lots of lovely sugars are available), whereas the bluer blues (Radium) promote protein production. From what I've read, the 12KK seem to lack sufficient PAR to easily achieve the carbohydrate baseline. Again I'll throw in my pet theory that corals photo-adapt based on levels of red light, hence although Iwasaki's may produce more blue, its effect are counteracted by the higher red.


------------------
Cheers
Andy
http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk

Originally posted by andy-hipkiss:

Coming back to the O2 output vs wavelength, the reason I wasn't overly concerned about it was that O2 production is associated with carbohydrate production, and although important up to a baseline, it is nitrogenous production that I believe to be significant for colouration (i.e. the pigments are proteins).

You're right, it has nothing at all to do with coloration unless you are measuring only the wavelengths that are most useful to the pigments inside the coral's tissues that produce coloration, and these wavelengths would have no relevance to growth unless they happen to also stimulate the zooxanthellae which have different pigments.

This may explain why warmer bulbs give better growth (lots of lovely sugars are available), whereas the bluer blues (Radium) promote protein production.

It is obvious from the pictures of Steve Tyree's tank and HiloJack's tank, that 20,000K makes a significant contribution to SPS coloration.

From what I've read, the 12KK seem to lack sufficient PAR to easily achieve the carbohydrate baseline.

I believe you are referring to the ALS Sunburst 12,000K metal halide lamps, right? Personally, I don't think much of these lamps. HiloJack does have a 1000w ALS 12,000K lamp over his SPS tank that is on in the middle of the day, but I believe the 1200 watts of 20,000K that he has over his little 54-gal tank are more responsible for the coloration in his SPS. (I feel obligated to throw in a disclaimer that while I think HiloJack has a "beautiful" tank, I do not think that much light is required to maintain the health of the animals.)

BTW, the 250w Ushio/BLV 10,000K HQI double-ended lamp that Sanjay tested measured 11,723K actual color temperature, and according to AB-Aqualine the AB-10000 lamps (all sizes, both double-ended and mogul base) are actually 13,000K color temperature. AB-10000 is just the brand name.

Again I'll throw in my pet theory that corals photo-adapt based on levels of red light, hence although Iwasaki's may produce more blue, its effect are counteracted by the higher red.

Actually, a 250w 6500K Iwasaki has less red than my Ushio 250w 10,000K HQI double-ended lamps.


Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]


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"Neither in French nor in English nor in Mexican."—George W. Bush, Declining to answer reporters' questions at the Summit of the Americas, Quebec City, Canada, April 21, 2001

fwiw look at sanjay and reef engineer tanks they have nice colorful sps with iwaski. there more than just lighting. alk and calcium demands help with the color.

thanks for allthe info guys..alot to digest before making decision..heat should not be a problem the tank is built into a wall with a closet like room which it sits in..in the room is a fan which blows the air to the outside of the house via a thermostae controlled fan..the ventig also intakes from tthe mechanical room down in the basement.

ninong..the pics of steve's tanks..is that with all lights on? sonme look like only the atinics are on?

and by the way yes you did answr one of my past post and had me thihnnking about 1000 watt..but i dont think i want to go that far. the tank will be 34 wide (front to back) but i am going to try to leave a 4 inch spacebetween the back and the begining of the rock work ..trying to think about how to leave that are a type of intak refugium..so really taking about 30 inches wide. tank is 31 deep .so my thoughts are to go with 400 watt times 4 and 6-8 vho atinics...also thought about running a 20k 400watt on a trach that traveles back and forth across the tank during the day..know any one that has used these? i have only seen them advertised in aquatic catalogs.

thanks all..

[This message has been edited by Chicago (edited 05-28-2001).]

Originally posted by Chicago:

ninong..the pics of steve's tanks..is that with all lights on? sonme look like only the atinics are on?

Yep, that's all the lights on... and remember, he doesn't even use actinics. That's 525 watts of 10,000K and 800 watts of 20,000K. What you are seeing is the effect of the 20,000K.

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

P.S. - A light that moves back and forth on a track all day seems to tempt Murphy's Law. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]


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"Neither in French nor in English nor in Mexican."—George W. Bush, Declining to answer reporters' questions at the Summit of the Americas, Quebec City, Canada, April 21, 2001

thats what i was thinking..thus the question, has anyone ran into murphy's law with a light on a movig track???

any suggestions on where to purchase these lights? are any running on an eballasst? i realize there is a lot to coloration on corals but it seems the on sure thing is that the more light the easier it is to get good coloration.
i have sps that do great under 175 wtt 10k but when they were fraggged and put under 250 hgi they improved gretly..

Chicago ~

I would use the PFO HQI ballast if I were you. I would not even consider the Blueline ballast until they redesign it to eliminate all the RFI.

For prices on all of that stuff, check out www.marinedepot.com and www.premiumaquatics.com also Scott Z. is now carrying a lot of that stuff http://secure2.easyspace.com/www.reefland.com/shopping/

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

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"The Senate needs to leave enough money in the proposed budget to not only reduce all marginal rates, but to eliminate the death tax, so that people who build up assets are able to transfer them from one generation to the next, regardless of a person's race."—George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., April 5, 2001

pfo hqi I would get also. But make sure you only are gonna run 10-20 hqi Its the only bulbs you can run. If I were getting 4_400w and was gonna run actinics also even if i weren't running actinics I would include at least 1-2 regular pfo so i could run Iwaski. But if you are only running 10k hqi the pfo I would get. But i don't like my tank to look to blue. I like mine to look white. My prefferance. and I don't like paying $$ every year for bulbs

ok now that we have thrown hgi, pfo, 400, 250, mogul base, ppfd ect allover this post..

ninong i have learned to respect your posts and others on thsi board as vbeing reliable based upon experiance..compared to other boards i wont mention..

are you saying that regardless of the 250 watt vs. 400 watt that a good choice would bee pfo hqi..i say this because there is a post above refrencing running mogul 400 watt on a pfo hqi ballast?

or are there in fact 400 watt hqi's being refrenced,, i only know of 400 watt mogule based

and yes i looking at 10k to 20 k bulbs plus i could add 160 watt vho's from the tank i am tearing down which is being replaced..in fact i have a couple of 175 watt icecap ballast mh i could add..but at that size tank i think it might just be a wast?

thanks all

[This message has been edited by Chicago (edited 05-28-2001).]

i know we are going at this at length ...but are you guys telling me to go with hqi 250 watt or is there out there 400 watt hqi at 10k and 20k..

sorry to ask so many questions over and over but although i have bben in the hobby for over 20 years i have not had to deal with lighting issues since about 4 years ago when i set up my 200 reef with icecap mh 175 watt ballasts..supplemented with atticninc vho lighting..i tend to like the whiter bluer range than the yellowisse..

thanks all

[This message has been edited by Chicago (edited 05-28-2001).]

OK, let me explain a bit. I was assuming that you might want to go with the combination of 10,000K and 20,000K HQI lamps that we discussed (plus your 160w VHO actinics).

The 20,000K HQI lamps are only manufactured in mogul base versions in the 250w and 400w sizes. They do offer a double-ended 150w 20,000K HQI lamp but I think the 400w size is much better for your tank.

So.... if you are going to go with a couple of 400w 20,000K HQI mogul base lamps, I assumed you would want to go with the 400w size of the 10,000K HQI lamps which are also mogul base. This means you could have three 10,000K lamps and two 20,000K lamps all in the same type of reflectors. Since you would be going with five 400w lamps across an 8-ft tank, you would probably want to use the regular perpendicular type reflectors instead of the parallel type. You could position the two 20,000K lamps between the three 10,000K lamps and have them offset about 8" to the rear of the tank... whatever works in your canopy along with your 160w VHO actinics.

The reason I stopped talking about the 250w 10,000K HQI double-ended lamps (like I have) is because they are very difficult to set up in a DIY canopy type installation. They absolutely must have a UV shield and you cannot have air blowing directly on the "lamp" itself since it doesn't have an outer envelope. If you would like to use the 250w 10,000K HQI double-ended lamps in the individual little mini hoods (like Golfish), you could do that.

I was trying to keep things simple for ya. My HQI lamps are in a fixture that has to be suspended about 10" over the tank and should not be enclosed in any type of canopy.

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

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"The Senate needs to leave enough money in the proposed budget to not only reduce all marginal rates, but to eliminate the death tax, so that people who build up assets are able to transfer them from one generation to the next, regardless of a person's race."—George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., April 5, 2001

if you are going 400w get regular pfo not hqi. The hqi doesn't give you much more then you are limited= pfohqi 120par and magnetic 116.9 par.Ushio. hqi is alittle better but regular ballast you can mix iwaski which is @187par. I would use 2 iwaski with 10k or 20k for best effect. or at least you can use any bulb of your choice.

ninong, ironreef, all posters thanks for all your help , one of the main problems i had with understanding the newest lighting concepts was that hqi is not only double ended but also made in mogul versions..

since the tank is 8 feet long and about 31 inches wide of reef (actual tank is wider but back of it about 4 inches will be dedicated to a in tank refugium) i am looking to get 5 400 watt mh. i like ninong's suggestion of going with 3 10k and 2 20k..you think this will give good depth..i can also supplement with my vho's if need be.
\
any ideas on how to fabricate this ..hang it off the ceiling by pullys ect. ?/

any sources and types of specific ballasts to use..???


p.s. iron reef i just got through rereading your prior reply and now understand what you mean by the ballasts hqi v pfo being limited to certain bulbs and trying to use the iwaski bulbs..thanks agina guys now need to try and find out how to pay for all of this....

[This message has been edited by Chicago (edited 05-28-2001).]

Ninong,

Yes the 12KK I was thinking of are called the Sunburst I believe ... any idea who makes them?

Shame the Radiums (Osram HQI/T Blue) weren't included in that analysis (or was it done before the 250W version became available?)

What do the AB's look like ... AB dropped their supplier (Ushio/BLV) last year (or maybe '99) in Europe but wonder if you guys are still getting the BLV's or whether the newer stuff has filtered through?

I have had both the new AB 400W and the old (i.e. BLV) 400W running at the same time ... not a lot in it (apart from the new AB has a bulge in the envelope), and by visual inspection only, I would have said the new AB's are a warmer kelvin if anything. But that's the 400W.

Wonder who now supplies AB ... anybody know?

And of no interest to the US reader but BLV's are the cheap ones over here, with a 400W being only $65 inc. whereas the Iwasaki are over $120 as they are only avaiable as hobby items, whilst the BLV's are available from BLV UK (via normal electrical suppliers).

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Cheers
Andy
http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk

http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/.../aquarium.html read more on ballast and lights

[This message has been edited by Ironreef (edited 05-29-2001).]

Originally posted by andy-hipkiss:

Ninong,

Yes the 12KK I was thinking of are called the Sunburst I believe ... any idea who makes them?

They are made by the same guys who won't give us back our spy plane. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img] ALS imports them from China. ALS keeps saying they are working on improving quality control. They seem to have a significantly high infant mortality rate. [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

Shame the Radiums (Osram HQI/T Blue) weren't included in that analysis (or was it done before the 250W version became available?)

I don't know. Here is the link to Sanjay's analysis of the Osram/Radium 400w 20,000K lamp: http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a.../1/default.asp

What do the AB's look like ... AB dropped their supplier (Ushio/BLV) last year (or maybe '99) in Europe but wonder if you guys are still getting the BLV's or whether the newer stuff has filtered through?

You have me thoroughly confused. I though AB made their own lamps. Anyway, I have 250w 10,000K HQI double-ended lamps from both AB-Aqualine and BLV. I have only tried them in the fixture to see if they worked (they do). My tank is not up yet. PerryinCA has tried both versions at work and he says he can detect a very slight bit more of bluish-white tint in the AB lamp as compared to the BLV.

I have had both the new AB 400W and the old (i.e. BLV) 400W running at the same time ... not a lot in it (apart from the new AB has a bulge in the envelope), and by visual inspection only, I would have said the new AB's are a warmer kelvin if anything. But that's the 400W.

Wonder who now supplies AB ... anybody know?

Again, I can't help you because I didn't realize that AB didn't make their own.

And of no interest to the US reader but BLV's are the cheap ones over here, with a 400W being only $65 inc. whereas the Iwasaki are over $120 as they are only avaiable as hobby items, whilst the BLV's are available from BLV UK (via normal electrical suppliers).

That's probably because Germany is part of the European Union (which the UK is having a hard time figuring out whether this is a good thing or a bad thing [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]) and Japan is not. So even though BLV is 100% Japanese owned and operated (both directors are Japanese nationals), it is located in Bavaria. I have noticed that most German hobby equipment is much cheaper in the UK than it is in the U.S.

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]



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"Neither in French nor in English nor in Mexican."—George W. Bush, Declining to answer reporters' questions at the Summit of the Americas, Quebec City, Canada, April 21, 2001

thanks again ironreef...

Chicago ~

If you intend going with 400w 10,000K and 400w 20,000K (which is what I would do), I think it is important that you go with HQI ballasts. There are two different basic ways to mount your lights in a built-in custom tank such as you will have. The first involves having a canopy over the tank that could be accessed from the equipment room. The lights/reflectors would be mounted to the inside of the canopy. The second involves using pendant fixtures suspended from the ceiling--this is probably the better way to go if you have an equipment room.

Why not shoot an e-mail to Scott Z. scott@reefland.com because he now carries all of the stuff you are looking for (except the 20,000K lamps, which he could probably get for you) at http://secure2.easyspace.com/www.reefland.com/shopping/ He carries all of the PFO ballasts and reflectors, also the PFO pendants. I'm sure he would be happy to call you to discuss your requirements.

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

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"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."—George W. Bush, Townsend, Tenn., Feb. 21, 2001

thanks again guys ...just talked to mitch and he is getting close to shippping this monster...willpost pics as this thing developes..

the 400w hqi aren't worth the little extra par they give IMO. Regualr ballest you can run 10-20k 6.5k and any other new bulb that comes out. maybe iwaski50k. You maynot like all the actinic. What i don't like to be is limited.