MH/HQI lighting for 72g bow

[Ninong]

Bowfront,

Sanjay has never published PAR measurements for the Ushio 250w 10,000K mogul base lamp. He did publish results for the Ushio 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamp (although he did not identify it by brand name at the time) back in Dec. 1999.

However, I would expect that the performance of the Ushio 250w 10,000K mogul base lamps would be excellent and comparable to the same size AB-10000... probably the only difference might be that the Aqualine Buschke would appear just slightly more bluish-white. I am basing this assumption on Sanjay's published test results for the Ushio 175w 10,000K mogul base lamp and his more recent test of the Red Sea 175w 10,000K mogul base lamp--which is the same lamp. These results showed the Ushio 10,000K 175w size lamp to be superior to the other 175w mogul base lamps that he tested. For example, in his most recent test, the PPFD for the 175w Red Sea 10,000K lamp was 71.06 as compared to 28.45 PPFD for the 175w Blueline (Chinese) 10,000K lamp and 22.22 PPFD for the 175w ALS (Chinese) 12,000K lamp.

I really don't know what to tell you about the comment from the MO vendor that they had more problems with AB lamps than with Ushio. I have no idea whether that is true or not. I do know that someone just purchased a H. bullocki nudibranch yesterday because the vendor told him it would eat Aiptasia sp., which is very funny because it is a specialized sponge feeder. But I'm sure that sponge eating is not as marketable as aiptasia eating. Anyhoo... these guys have the 250w size AB-10000 lamps for $94.99, It-AB76251 ... http://www.customaquatic.com/customa...bCatID=lt-rmhb I'm sure you will be happy with either the Ushio or the Aqualine Buschke... or the Iwasakis, for that matter.

Ninong

[bowfront]

Mark

Yes, thanks for your earlier suggestion on another BB which was essentially the same as Ninong's. "This setup will give you more to work with when you upgrade tank size." I like that and you're probably right. Still kicking myself for not going with a 120g (4'x2'x2') a couple of years back when I got the bow. My wife was even saying
"are you sure that's going to be big enough". What you need to do is sell me those mini's for the price of another 400w . Just kidding you seem happy with your setup. I agree the Iwasaki's are a bargain. I'm thinking about ordering one of each and then deciding and keeping the extra bulb as a spare.

Ninong

Thanks for answering so fast on the bulb comparions. Actually I found the AB for $79 so will probably give it a try over the Ushio which is more like $99. As I mentioned above I may also order an Iwasaki bulb just to see what it looks like. This is a great little forum and once again I appreciate all of your help.

[fetidskunk]

Bowfront,

Where did you find the AB for $79?

RR

[bowfront]

I found the AB 10k's here for $79. I didn't call to see if they have them in stock. BTW, these bulbs may need an HQI ballast to operate correctly. I have an email into AB to see what they say but haven't heard back yet.

Can anyone tell me if the 250w blueline eballasts will fire 20k radium bulbs. I assume they will because the 400w version will. I was wondering what these would look like over a tank my size with plenty of VHO suppliment (maybe some aquasun + super actinic). Also I assume that the eballast will fire an Iwasaki and AB if it needs HQI.
Comments anyone?

[Ltspd]

The LN wil fire both the Iwasaki and the AB. And according to the Lampsnow page they will fire all 250w bulbs.

http://www.hellolights.com/25elbalmetha.html

[golfish]

I think it was about 4-5 months ago that a guy over at RC started using the 250 watt AB bulbs on an HQI ballast. I thought he was nuts. Then, after talking to a few people who I know and respect I changed my mind. It seems that the German bulbs are really made to run on the HQI ballasts.

You can't go wrong running them on an HQI ballast, if I were to run any german bulbs I would do it on an HQI ballast.

You must be ready to rip your head off trying to decide I did and still think I made the wrong choice. If it wasn't for this center brace on my tank I would change the whole setup.....400 watt 20K's

Hey, have you given any thought to running 2x400 watt 20K's on an HQI ballast. Then you can sell the VHO's and have what is probably the best lights of them all........


Mark

[Ninong]

Originally posted by bowfront:

I found the AB 10k's here for $79. I didn't call to see if they have them in stock.

That's a very good price! BTW, I don't know where you planned on getting your PFO parallel reflectors, but both Marine Depot and Premium Aquatics will price match other online vendors if you provide the information and ask them to do it. In case you wanted to get everything at the same place.

BTW, these bulbs may need an HQI ballast to operate correctly. I have an email into AB to see what they say but haven't heard back yet.

As Golfish says, they may operate better on an HQI ballast but they do not require one. Sanjay ran the 250w AB-10000 mogul base lamp on a regular Magnetek ballast and measured 110.9 PPFD. The 250w 20,000K Radiums do require an HQI ballast.

Can anyone tell me if the 250w blueline eballasts will fire 20k radium bulbs.

Yes, I believe most electronic ballasts will. IceCap claims that their 250w ballast will fire 250w HQI DE lamps that require an HQI ballast.

I was wondering what these would look like over a tank my size with plenty of VHO suppliment (maybe some aquasun + super actinic).

I haven't seen these yet but I assume they will look pretty much the same as the 400w 20,000K Radiums but just not as strong. So that means they would be considerably bluer than the AB-10000 lamps and you would probably want to adjust the final appearance of the tank by choosing a lower Kelvin VHO, as you mentioned.

Also I assume that the eballast will fire an Iwasaki and AB if it needs HQI.

Yes, I'm pretty sure it will. Just remember that if you plan on using X-10 controllers, such as the Neptune Systems Aquacontroller, you will have interference from the Blueline eBallasts.

Comments anyone?

Yes, I have one comment. Is this a 72-gal tank or a 720-gal tank! Whew! It seems like this project will never end.

Ninong

[bowfront]

Ok folks I was all ready to place an order today and found that e-ballasts are back ordered at both PA and Champion. They don't expect another shipment for at least 6 weeks according to Champion. I really don' t feel like waiting so this leaves me with one last set of ballast questions. If I can get just a little more help I promise to let this thread die.

Paul

What can you tell me about this ballast. Do they run hot to the touch? Are you completely happy with yours (no problems)? Do they run noise and flicker free? IYO can they be mounted inside of my stand w/o heat problems?

Mark

Actually I have considered dual 400w 20k's. If I had a chiller this would probably make the most sense and leave me with a killer tank. Without the chiler I'm afraid to try it. BTW, I have'nt ruled out PFO ballasts but if these smaller electronic ones will fire any bulb and run cool seems like they are worth checking into. If I go with an HQI PFO ballast I can only run 10k and 20k bulbs not Iwaski. If I go with a standard PFO ballasts the 10K AB's are hit and miss. What do you know about the LN ballasts?

Ninong

Out of a choice of PFO/blueline/LN which ballast would you select? Has Sanjay (or anyone else for that matter) ever run any tests using the
LN ballast?

[Ltspd]

I love the LN. If I had to buy a ballast again, that would be it. Its economical. It fires a wide variety of bulbs. I have had no flicker with either the Iwasaki's or the HQI's (only 2 I have ran). It does get hot, but I can lay my hand on the ballast and hold it there and not be uncomfotable. I would mount it somewhere other than the inside of the hood though, but I wouldnt mount any ballast inside the hood, for both heat and water issues.

As far as tests, not sure. They probally do not produce as much par, based off of the most recent test with a Aromat (I also use) but they dont require as much elec. I think the diffrence was maybe 5%?

I purchased this ballast so I dont have to buy diffrent ballast if I want to try diffrent bulbs. I also dont have to send the ballast back to have it re-tuned to run diffrent bulbs.

These ballast, along with the aromat (150w) are within 12" of a PLC that controls things on my tank. This is not a X-10, but preforms the same functions. PLC=Program Logic Controller and are used in the industry to run machines.

[Ltspd]

Here is a shot of the LN's as promised from the PM.

This is the light panel. The icecube relays across the top handle the amprage from the lights going thru the PLC.

[Claude Pool]

PMFJI . Bowfront may be ready to let this thread die but I'm not This is a great thread and is one for the archives.

I have a 14 months old 75g flat back hexagon (15" on sides 19" in the center) 20" deep with an ave 2" of sand.

My lighting is incomplete and consists at present of a minipendant with a 150W 10K Ushio HQI on the one side and on the other side a loaner bell pendant with a 175W Ushio 10K mogul. Both lamps are run on Ice Cap ballasts. I read this thread with much interest since I am trying to decide on the final set up and much like Bowfront have gone back and forth for a year now.

I see no difference in color between the 175 and the 150, nice crisp white, which is what I was looking for. The bell does concentrate the light more than the mini-pendant. The 150 while it gives as much or more light than the 175 runs much much cooler. I figure the bell with the 175W runs a couple degrees hotter and actually it is very uncomfortable to work below it. I have both luminaires hanging from plant hangers which I can swing from side to side. A very nice arrangement. This has saved me from being severely sunburnt and makes access to the tank so much easier.

My problem is that I don't think I have enough light for a maxima clam. My deresa is doing beutifully but a recently bought maxima died within 3 weeks of purchase. It was unhappy no matter where I put it. Also a pink Cat's Paw while doing well has lost all its pink. All my blue mushrooms, from different sources, have turned brown within weeks of purchase. A colt which was white when bought is doing very well and was fragged twice. It also turned dark brown but I understand this is healthy for a colt. My green corals are not as bright as I would like them to be, they were greener when purchased.

Questions:


1. Why do my mushrooms and corals turn brown? Is it because of not enough light, too much light and/or need for actinics? I was thinking of adding two VHO actinics and using some kind of hanging hood, but my tank is already running at 82-84o (because of my water cooled pump) and the Rio for the Turboflotor and two power heads. I really do not want to have to get a chiller.

2. I see PFO, Blueline and LN ballasts mentioned as possible choices by Bowfront but except for a passing reference the Ice Cap ballast is not mentioned. Am I missing something?

3. Does anyone have a reference/link to Sanjay's recent 150W 10K HQI DE test?

4. The glass shield on my mini-pendant has no markings on it. I would like to buy a new piece of glass to replace it to be sure that it absorbs all dangereous UV wavelengths. I spend a lot of time with my arms in the tank scraping coralline from the acrylic and I am concerned about skin cancer over time. Does anyone know of a source for tempered glass which also absorbs UV?

Thanks to all,

Claude

[Claude Pool]

I meant to say that the bell pendant with the 175W lamp adds 2 degrees to the tank water temperature not that it runs 2 degrees hotter.

By the way, this is a great board. I've been lurking for a while

Claude

[Ltspd]

1. Why do my mushrooms and corals turn brown? Is it because of not enough light, too much light and/or need for actinics? I was thinking of adding two VHO actinics and using some kind of hanging hood, but my tank is already running at 82-84o (because of my water cooled pump) and the Rio for the Turboflotor and two power heads. I really do not want to have to get a chiller.

I would think this is due to too much light.


2. I see PFO, Blueline and LN ballasts mentioned as possible choices by Bowfront but except for a passing reference the Ice Cap ballast is not mentioned. Am I missing something?

IMO, they are overpriced and dont work consistant. You have to send the ballast back for re-tuning for diffrent bulbs which IMO is a PITA. I fell much better with my LN's at a much lower price.



3. Does anyone have a reference/link to Sanjay's recent 150W 10K HQI DE test?

This is in the 2002 annual magazine, which is availbe for purchase online or at your local LFS.


4. The glass shield on my mini-pendant has no markings on it. I would like to buy a new piece of glass to replace it to be sure that it absorbs all dangereous UV wavelengths. I spend a lot of time with my arms in the tank scraping coralline from the acrylic and I am concerned about skin cancer over time. Does anyone know of a source for tempered glass which also absorbs UV?

Sure, if you are willing to pay for tempared UV reducing glass. According to Borneman the corals dont need the UV reduction.
http://reefcentral.com/vbulletin/sho...ght=UV+and+HQI

I have listed the best UV reduction glass to get in the above link. Its a Schott glass and I would choose Borafloat AR. I seem to remember a price of around 80/sq ft, but may be wrong. I no longer have that quote.

[Ltspd]

Forgot something.

Lexan, acrylic and other plastics reduce UV greatly, but can not handle the heat. They will bow and discolor within a short time.

[bowfront]

Hello Claude,

As Paul mentions the IceCap MH ballasts have a rocky track record. Some people seem to love them and others report chronic problems. The bulb tuning issue alone was enough to discourage me from considering these. I do own an IceCap 660 VHO ballast which has preformed flawless from me. For the record IceCap is in the process of revamping their MH ballasts with a new model. This according to IceCap won't be available for a couple more months. Supposedly the bulb tuning issue has been fixed but I don't have any other details. I'm assuming that your IceCap runs your 150w DE without any problems. Was it specifically tuned for this bulb do you know?. IceCap is a good company IMO but does need to present a more up to date MH ballast if it wants to compete. The new LN ballast that Ltspd is using will run any MH bulb as well as HQI DE's without specific tuning. The Blueline e-ballast will supposedly run all moguls but won't run HQI DE's. PFO's will run some moguls but not others. Personally I like the idea of electronic ballasts as they have a smaller footprint, run cooler and suck less electricity.

I'm still confused over exactly what to do as you are. My cheapest alternative is to go with a dual 250w mogul setup with probably 10k German bulbs to start. There is something inside of me still telling me to be carefull with this decision. I have spent big money on this hobby before and been sorry latter. I'm interested to hear that your 150w DE is running cooler than the 175w mogul pendant. I've asked the temperature thing to everyone but few people have both running side by side. If I was assured that dual 150w DE's + 2 VHO bulbs would be sufficient I would order the mini pendants tonight but I have the feeling that everyone is right on this and that 250w bulbs (mogul or DE) would be the best choice for tanks the size of ours. Actually I wish there was something else even better than either out there because I would give it a try but to my knowledge there just isn't right now.

Anyway I hope you have learned something from this thread. I know I have but as of tonight I still have not placed an order. BTW, I agree that this is a great board. Best of luck in the future. I hope some others can help you as they have me.

Charlie

[Claude Pool]

Paul C:

Thanks for all the info. I'm not too swift with net searches and I spent quite a bit of time chasing info on Schott glass. I will try to call them to-morrow to get a price. Thanks again.

Most of the info I found was in the Special Collection referenced in the Northern Light search engine.

I found a document dated 7/1998 IDGG19990805010133296 Source: Glass International, titled: UV absorbing sheet glass range ectended. Summary: Corning has launched a UV absorbing sheet glass, Pyrex-UV-plus, which is transparent, colourless and has a sharp UV cut off which virtually eliminates all UV c, b and a. Since it is over two years old I imagine most of you already know about it. I thought I'd mention it anyway. I think it's interesting that it blocks the three UV wavelengths which are of concern to aquarists.

Incidentally, I followed a link to Reefcentral about HQI and UV which you gave Bowfront early in the thread. Sorry, I couldn't seem to insert it here, I didn't have the full link. Anyway, I was more than surprised by the cavalier attitude of some members regarding the potential dangers of UV radiation. I am a fairly new reef keeper and do not presume to know what protection corals do or do not have against UV radiation but as a biologist I can assure you that humans would do well to protect themselves and adequately shield their HQI DE bulbs. Actually it is my understanding that Mogul type bulbs and even VHOs do radiate some UV. I recall reading an article by Dana Riddle about that.

For those without a scientific background let me give you an analogy which may help you understand. We are constantly bombarded by radiation from the sun. Much of it is filtered by the ozone layer. What gets through can be likened to a shower of meteorites. Some big some small. Many or few. At the one end of the spectrum we have innocuous long wavelengths such as radio waves, at the other end very dangerous short wavelengths like X-rays and Gamma rays. The UVs we're talking about are somewhere in between. UV c being shorter are more dangerous than a and b. That does not make a and b harmless.

The shorter the wavelength of the radiation, the more energy it packs and the more damaging it is to biological systems. Any hit can damage the genetic material of the cell it hits. Think of it as an inverse relationship, the shorter the wavelenth, the bigger the meteor, the bigger the hit, the larger the potential damage. On the other hand, the more radiation, the more meteorites and the more likely that you will have a hit. This is why NO short wave radiation is safe. We can't completely avoid it, afterall we evolved in a sea of radiation, but we should try our best to lower our exposure to the lowest possible level.

I hope I did not bore all of you but when I read the thread on Reefcentral I realized many people did not appreciate the potential dangers. Aside from potential damage to the eyes, cataracts for example, an aquarist who spends a lot of time with his/her arms in the tank could be exposed to dangerous amount and type of radiation which could well result in skin cancer.

I think this is an issue which needs to be addressed by manufacturers of luminaires.

Charlie:

Yes, you are assuming right. My IceCap ballasts are performing flawlessly. The one which runs the 175W mogul ran like a charm since day one. The one which runs the 150W DE had to be retuned a couple times when first used and has run without problem since (It was a test run and I was willing to go through the retuning to save electricity in the long run and get more PAR from the bulb). They both have been running for about 14 months. I love them, no flicker, almost no heat. most of the energy is going into producing light. I believe Andy at IceCap is going to market a similar product in the near future.

Like you, if I were assured that dual 150W DEs + 2VHO bulbs would supply enough PAR, I would go for it. Having had a very unhappy and now dead Tridacna maxima worries me. I had been told by FFE that I should have 6-7 Watts/gallon to keep maximas. I had put it under the 150W DE and felt sure it was enough. I was under the impression at the time that a 150W HQI DE was close to a 250W mogul. I have to find Sanjay's article. Did not have time to hunt for the magazine yet.

Thanks for your input.

Claude

[Ltspd]

Claude,

Here is the link to Schott. http://www.schott.com/english/contact/index.html

My attitude may be caviler, but if the big boys are using nothing but tempared glass then its ok for me. Now, If I were under the bulbs 8hrs a day, 7 days a week then I might be worried more. But, I havent noticed a "sunburn" working under them on my tank. My hands are in the tank almost daily, but for breif periods. Until I see some definite research performed on the harmfullness of these bulbs I will keep the several hundred dollars required to put special UV absorbing tempared glass in my pocket.

Like I said, Lexan, acrylic and other common plastics will do it, but cant handle the heat

[Claude Pool]

Thanks for the link Paul.

I'll try to get a price today and post it. I can certainly understand the costs concerns. Fortunately I would only need one square foot to shield both mini pendants. It's worth it for my peace of mind. I lost more money when my clam died.

Unlike you, I sometimes spend two and three hours scraping the coralline off the front and sides of my aquarium. Coralline definetely must love the Tenecor brand of acrylic. I had been ill since Christmas and let it go for about two weeks and it took two three hour sessions to get rid of it. I have to go slowly and be very careful not to scratch the acrylic.

Incidentally, my comments were not directed at you but rather at those big boys. They may have a big reputation but it doesn't mean that they are right on this point. Remember that there is no ozone layer between you and your bulbs and you don't necessarily need a sunburn for damage to occur. It's the luck of the draw.

Thanks again for the help.

Claude

[bowfront]

Claude,

I have looked high and low in my area for a copy of the Marine Fish and Reef 2002 annual edition and can't find one. Plenty of LFS's but none of them on the ball. Anyway I did a search last night on another board and did find an 800 number to order a copy. For a $5 shipping/handling charge they will supposedly mail it to you directly from the publisher. I haven't gotten through to anyone there yet this morning as they are on PST but plan to order the magazine myself today. At any rate the number for MFAR is 888-738-2665. I think it would behove both of us to read the the article closely. BTW, I emailed Sanjay Joshi with a few questions last night but haven't heard back from him yet. I still have not ordered my lighting and am concentrating my efforts on a new MH style canopy for my tank.

I can fully understand your concerns about UV exposure especially with the HQI DE bulbs. Please let us all know what you find out as far as a price on something other than just tempered glass. The entire issue of UV exposure to us as humans not neccesarily the tank inhabitants has been under explored IMO. I, like you, would rather play it safe than find out 5 years down the road that we have been exposing outselves to potentially harmfull levels of UV.

I'm glad to hear that you are having good luck with the IC ballasts. As mentioned some seem to be very happy with that product while others report problems. I think that electronic ballasts are probably the way to go if for no other reason to conserve electricity.

If you look at the lighting data alone of people like Sanjay it suggests to me that dual 150 watt DE bulbs + actinic suppliment would be sufficient for tanks our size. I like you am interested in providing enough light for everything including all SPS and clams so I'm still a little hesitant to try it. As you have probably noticed virtually everyone on these boards will advise you that the more light the better. This may be true and if heat and electric bills where not part of the equation I quess we would all be craming all available space with light bulbs. Personally I would like to keep things to a minimum but yet not have to worry about any future upgrades. Without trying a series of setups out before deciding there is probably no way to make a proper decision. Whatever I do go with will be supplimented with VHO actinic basically because I already have the hardware and like the florescence and color that these adds.

Keep us posted,

Charlie

[PerryinCA]

Lots of good content and info in here.

Archived

Regards,

Perry