Manifolds & Flow rate dynamics & AM3000

[mobrien]

wow I could have used this thread about a month ago when I re did all my plumbing. I tell ya what I have. for an overflow I went with 2 boxes in the corners 4x10deep but I put a 4x4 overflow between them. This way I'm pulling of the whole top of the tank (coast to coast overflow)


I put 1 ampmaster 3000 on a closed loop. It pulls from 2 1 inch bulkheads downt to the pump and then back up through a 1 1/2 pipe to a manifold just above the tank. the manifold feeds 3 3/4 lockline returns and 1 sea swirl. I also put another ampmaster 3000 taking from the sump going up 1 1/2 pipe to another 1 1/2 maniflod, from the sump manifold I have 2 lock line returns (3/4) and 1 spiget to a sea swirl. all are controled with gate valves

here is some pics.

[scubadude]

Organic,

To tell you the truth...No I dont fully understand it but I think I have a good grasp of the basic application.

Here is what I think your missing Organic....Lets say for figuring sake (which I believe to be very close) that 4 - 3/4" equals the same as 1 - 1.5" if thats true then you are taking 4x1.33 per ft. when it should be 1x1

[scubadude]

LOL...thats a spacestation Bro! ....I must commend you on that...job well done! I really love the coast to coast overflow!!! YES!! that is a unique asset! Are you having 2nd thoughts about the effeciency of the plumbing?

[organicreefer]

no scuba....even if i only took one ...it still cant be right...the pump wouldnt be able to handle the application i described even if it was one....and im sure it could.

start over manifold three feet high with 4 3/4 splits

3 feet + 4 feet for the four 90s+4x3 feet of 3/4=12 ft

thats 19 ft of head to go six feet high....that cant be right

[mobrien]

Now suba its what we affectionaly call the borg sump. Now it runs great, almost too good. Had to restrict the sump pump a little, it was blowing the fur off the acros . The overflow is really nice, it brings a whole new meaning to skimming off the top. One draw back on that is if you put the food on the very top of the surface it takes about .5 of a second to get to you sump. thanks

mike

[organicreefer]

ok 3 feet to the manifold

does each split on the manifold count as a 90...i think it does ..thats alot of head= 4

now from here i think is where the problem is,am i doing the math right here (probly not)


4 hoses 3 feet long =12 ft thats too much i think???

[organicreefer]

yeah that is awesome mobrien ...sorry im all consumed by this right now;)

[scubadude]

Originally posted by organicreefer
no scuba....even if i only took one ...it still cant be right...the pump wouldnt be able to handle the application i described even if it was one....and im sure it could.

LOL dude you are way confused....try to think about it for a sec....BTW I had a couple of typos in my last post to you....I cleaned them up....Organic think of it this way....the way you are figuring head would not make any of those manifolds that Dolphin makes effecient, much less any manifold....a manifold is a manifold as long as its balanced. Here again straight from Dolphins site....once you get above 13' of head on an AM3000 you will be getting less than 1200 gph Why would someone buy a 3600gph pump to only put out 1200 GPH? it doesnt make sense.

[organicreefer]

hey man ,quit laughing at me ,youre just as confused

whats youre take?calculate the head...im all for hashing this out. i guess i could just wait for my reply from dolphin ,huh;)

[wastedincome420]

i guess i could just wait for my reply from dolphin ,huh;) [/B][/QUOTE]


I wouuld like to know what they have say too.;) I also sent them mail so I'll be sure to share what they have to.

Since both Scuba and Organic have seen what/how I want to do it'll be intesting to hear what tell me



PS: I've NEVER seen a thread so active(and civil ;) )

[organicreefer]

wasted did you send them youre plans and ask which would be better,i think it would be a good idea;)

yes as i said in my first post with calculations,now that i have actually sat down and tried to do the math,im confident i dont have as good a grasp as i thought i originally had on this

ive been basing everything on the plumbing instructions on dolphins website,but now it is very apperant to me that they have definitely over simplified it (probly for the sake of beginners makes no sense)=dont wanna scare anyone off maybe???
it needs revising,they sell a manifold that they dont give head calculations for etc.they dont give calculations for 3/4...so now i have to assum they are talking total diameters again it doesnt specify....it says to use 1.5 inch or larger,at what point is it too large?more details on that page would be nice.im refering them to this thread...hopefully ,theyll respond directly ...AND GIVE US ALL THE REAL DEAL ;;

[wastedincome420]

Organic: When I wrote to dolphin to tied to "word it" After that is when I figued out how to use the computer drawing thing
I also think its a good idea to send them the two different sketch's. I have to do that;) But for now I need to get some sleep

I hope that dolphin does read our threads(I also refered them to my thread that was closed)

[Ltspd]

Originally posted by wastedincome420

Organicreefer: I suck at math too;) But I "think" the point is that 2 3/4" lines does NOT equal 1 1/2" But say 4-6 3/4" lines WILL give you the same as a 1 1/2" line

Had the last post not got turned into a circus you could have read where I did the calculations for you proving that statement above.

I will still refrain from posting too much to this thread but I will say a few things:

Area = Pi x radius squared

Like I have said before. You MUST equal the area of the input with the output.

Dolphin will tell you that if you use 1" plumbing instead of the 1-1/2" then the gph will drop to 40%

If anyone would like the info I will gladly calculate, please PM or email me.

[organicreefer]

ltspd,i did not turn it into a circus..i asked several times for you to explain how you came to youre conclusions....
i never said the inside diameters couldnt equal up...i say the extra friction because of the extra piping will drasitcally icrease head....do you know how to calculate the head for the example(s) given above?i would like to hear youre take...........

[Ltspd]

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc.htm

[golfish]

Organicreefer,
Paul did not say that YOU turned the last thread into a circus. I said it. We ALL need to keep our comments focused on the topic........again, "We ALL need to"

[Ltspd]

Here is my take.

To calculate the Velocity of water in feet per sec:

V=C x the square root of (hD/L+54D)

V= Apporx mean velocity in FPS
C= Coefficient of friction
D=Diameter of pipe in feet
h=total head in feet
L=total length of pipe line in feet


The C will equal 28 for 1-1/2" dia pipe, C will equal 14 for 3/4 pipe and C will equal 9 for 1/2 pipe

This formula will give results with 5-10% of actual results. And this answer's the important velocity question in the original post.

Enjoy

[Ironreef]

I agree you add head to a pump if its above the lowest plumbed part in a close loop, but if its on the botton i doubt if theres any and if there is not much. IMO if you have 5-6 3/4 holes you will get alot of use of the pump . Regardless of math

[scubadude]

Originally posted by Ironreef
I agree you add head to a pump if its above the lowest plumbed part in a close loop, but if its on the botton i doubt if theres any and if there is not much. IMO if you have 5-6 3/4 holes you will get alot of use of the pump . Regardless of math

I was wrong in the beginning of the thread...there is no head on the input side of the pump on a closed loop....I just got back from my freinds house (the plumber) and you are Correct! Sorry about that! I showed him this thread...and Pauls manifold pictures and told him that pauls sump was in the basement....He said that the manifold is setup fine...there is really no head loss...however the 10' height difference between his basement and the tank was head. A closed loop and our regular returns have got to be figured and calculated totally differently....He also said that he thought (wasnt for sure) that the pipe resistance that Dolphin is using is for steel pipe not PVC which is more less like a safety zone for us and what we are doing...we may have a 5% decrease of head if using the calculations for head from dolphins site. He said if we really wanted to improve our effeciency to use a 2-4" PVC header on our manifolds and/or up to them.

[organicreefer]

directly from dolphin:
You will not loose pressure at the manifold, however when you enter the 3/4" plumbing your head pressure will increase quite a bit. For example, when plumbing a 180 with 2-3/4" returns + a seperate skimmer, the best way to plumb from the outlet of the pump is to use 1.5" out of the pump all the way to the return bulkheads & then reduce to 3/4" with a reducing bushing. As for the skimmer, tie into yout 1.5" line with a tee & a Ball valve to requlate flow & also reduce at the skimmer inlet. By plumbing this way your flow rates will be at least 25% higher than if you used a manifold & 3/4" plumbing to go to the return lines.
also from dolphin:

The people saying to run 1.5" to each sea swirl & spray bar are correct. This is
the way to get THE most flow, even though some people have plumbed other ways
(manifold) and it works for them personally. They are wasting a good portion of
what an Amp Master 3000 can produce in the way of MAXIMUM flow rates.
Tom Briscall Jr
VP Dolphin Aquarium
850-434-9880


i hope i havent cluttered the thread again;)