Manifolds & Flow rate dynamics & AM3000

[scubadude]

I Have a buddy that is a professional plumber and after speaking with him for over 2 hrs today and showing him the specs on my AM3000 and discussing manifolds and port diameters me and him have come to the conclusion that using 4 (and possibly 3) ports with 3/4" off of a manifold that has a header (the main feed pipe to the ports) of 1.5" and is fed in the middle of the ports for a balanced equation is just as effecient as running one port at 1.5". The only difference is the velocity. This is VERY important because there are many ppl that are really wanting the AM3000 but they want it to perform as many different outlets....The things to consider is to make your manifold balanced! Always add ports in multiples of 2, try to put in a few more ports and worst case scenario cap them off, but always cap them off by balancing them....You can put ball valves on each port and throttle them, however this creates different velocities to the other ports. My point for this whole thread is to provide one pump that will run more than one application while getting the most effeciency out of that pump. The basic rules of plumbing still apply to this application....Always reduce at the last minute to be as effecient as possible.....try to oversize to the next size whenever possible if you are worried about causing too much head, I have been told that you could even make your manifold with many combinations and still achieve maximum effeciency (Of the pump)...For example your manifold could have 2 - 3/4" ports and 4 - 1/2" Now lets talk about downfalls of this type of setup....if you are trying to acheive a certain amount of velocity out of each of the ports then this is where it can be tricky....You only have X amount of GPH and if your head calculation flowrate exceeds the units you want to drive combined flowrates then it will just bog down everything on the system and make all the ports less effecient more than likely, unless you have ball valves and even then if the manifold is not perfectly balanced it can get tricky...even when you do have ball valve and throttle down a certain unit the opposing unit should be throttle down to balance the whole manifold....Its very tricky and confusing...Isnt it! But multiple ports of smaller diameter to manifolds can be done and very effeciently w/a AM3000....You just have to do your homework...there are tons of ppl that have done this and have proven what others thought to be incorrect plumbing wrong! The AM3000 can be throttled down on the output side in ANY variation w/out harm to the pump. Lets also not forget some of the golden rules when plumbing your pump.

1. Linnear footage of plumbing that is below the intake of the pump is NOT considered Head! Example....if you have a Closed Loop that has an intake midway in your water column but the plumbing goes all the way down to the floor every foot that is below the actual intake screen is NOT considered HEAD!

2. Horizontal linnear footage of plumbing is considered HALF of what vertical plumbing is! Example...1' of vertical plumbing above the intake = 1 ft. of head, however 1' of horizontal plumbing above the intake = .5' of head.

3. 90degree turns = 1' of head, 90 degree sweeps = .5' of head.

Here are some of the manifolds put out by Dolphin Pumps







Here are some great threads that I have used to reference my findings.

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin...ifold+flowrate

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin...light=manifold

http://www.reefs.org/cgi-bin/ultimat...=1&t=027224&p=

http://www.reefs.org/cgi-bin/ultimat...=1&t=028281&p=

http://www.reefland.com/cgi-bin/foru...&threadid=6160

[wastedincome420]

Bravo Scubadude
I would like to thank you for taking the time to research this subject.
You HAVE done your homework and even talked to a PRO
I cant picture anyone argueing this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One quick question
You stated that pipe BELOW the intake (on a closed loop) does NOT count as head right? Does this apply to the intake side AND return side? or just intake side??
Mark

[organicreefer]

so scuba youre thread obviously refers to me being wrong,so i will defend my position....
it says on the dolphin website :for every foot of 1" pipe,add 1.33 feet of head...........i suck at math....WHAT WOULD THE HEAD CALCULATION BE FOR 3/4 PIPES?
this is an honest question.
if its a half inch smaller in diameter and adds 1/3 more head...a 3/4 will add how much????

[scubadude]

Thanx Wasted

It applies to both intake and output sides....Think of it this way...once you have your loop plumbed and you turn off the pump think of how the water will settle inside the loop....wherever there is water in the loop that is the area that you DO NOT count as head.

[Ironreef]

intake isn't head but should be 1 1/2+ or your pump won't work to full capasity. head pressure is after the pump what it needs to push all that water through

[organicreefer]

i sent an email to dolphin,ill post their response when i get it

[scubadude]

Originally posted by Ironreef
intake isn't head but should be 1 1/2+ or your pump won't work to full capasity. head pressure is after the pump what it needs to push all that water through

Actually you can have head on the intake Ironreef, think of a closed loop with a U-tube as the intake then plumbed back down to the floor then up and back to your output...well the intake itself is the point of origin! but if the intake has to go UP above that point of origin the UP part is considered Head.

Organic,
I am NOT singling you out.
This does not refer to you being wrong....there are other ppl that feel the same way you do....CHECK the threads I posted...If you are not gonna follow along with me here then I will not waste my breath. Email me exactly the exact html page you are refering to on Dolphins site then I will address this on the thread.

I knew this might get a little heated....but lets not try to be coolheaded and civil about this....its Just a freindly debate ppl....thats it!

[organicreefer]

scuba ,i can totally debate this and keep it civil.........no prob.

[wastedincome420]

Ironreefer: Since you and scuba where probly typing at the same time I doubt you read his post right before yours. You got me a lil' confused now. Do you agree with what scuba said ?? meaning return pipe below the intake DOES or DOESN'T count as head???

Scubadude: thank you VERY much and I hope that you have a fun/safe trip. You gonna bring back any "goodies"?

Organicreefer: I suck at math too But I "think" the point is that 2 3/4" lines does NOT equal 1 1/2" But say 4-6 3/4" lines WILL give you the same as a 1 1/2" line

[organicreefer]

ll the data on head pressure fron the dolphin site:

For every 10' of horizontal 1.5" pipe add about 1 foot of head pressure due to friction loss. (Using smaller piping will increase head pressure)
For every 90º schedule 40 1.5" fitting add 1 foot of head. For 1.5" sweep 90º add .5 head feet.
For every 45º schedule 40 1.5" fitting add .5 head feet.
For every foot of 1.5" vertical piping add a foot of head. (For 1" pipe add 1.33' of head)
what would the calculation be for 3/4 ,and why dont they provide it?im sure someone good at math can figure this out
thats not me

[organicreefer]

wasted :it can never equal up because of friction

[scubadude]

I believe this is what you are refering to.

For every foot of 1.5" vertical piping add a foot of head. (For 1" pipe add 1.33' of head)

Take directly off of Dolphins site.

My calculations where for 1.5" plumbing not 1" plumbing. However from the way I was explained these values become irrelevant when you alter your plumbing through a manifold....that is why this whole topic is debated! So stay level with me organic....and lets hash it out

[wastedincome420]

Well I think I have all the info "I" need so I'll bow out now


Maybe "they" should start a forum for Debates

[scubadude]

Originally posted by wastedincome420
Organicreefer: I suck at math too But I "think" the point is that 2 3/4" lines does NOT equal 1 1/2" But say 4-6 3/4" lines WILL give you the same as a 1 1/2" line

YES! Exactly Wasted! very good point!

[organicreefer]

Originally posted by organicreefer
wasted :it can never equal up because of friction

another good point......right????
more/smaller pipes= more friction
isnt that the reason the head calculation is 1.33??

[wastedincome420]

I think tha when the people from Dolphin come in on monday morn they are going to have there hands/mail box full Organic your not the only one to send them mail this week-end


By the way, "How bout them patriots"

[organicreefer]

yes the total inside diameters can equal up,but you get proportionately more inside suface area= more friction=less gph.

so ,it may be closer than im thinking right now ,if infact the dolphin plumbing page does need revising

but it can certianly never ever equal up

it has about as much chance of equaling up ,as the patriots do winning the superbowl j/k

[scubadude]

Originally posted by organicreefer
yes the total inside diameters can equal up,but you get proportionally inside suface area= more friction=less gph.

Yup thats correct that is exactly why 2 - 3/4" dont equal a 1.5" im not even sure if 3 - 3/4" equal a half...We where doing the math today and I think it came close but it was still shy....but 4 of them DO!

[organicreefer]

so scuba,im still think that neither of us fully understands this for example


say i have a manifold three feet above my ampmaste,its 1 1/2 inch .it has 6 ports ....each 3/4 inch.there are 6 3 foot hoses splitting from there ....calculate the head on that

start with 3 feet ...the distance to the manifold.

now according to dohins head calculations each 90 adds a foot of head...do i have 6 90s on my manifold????seems like i do ...were up to 9 feet of head...and we havent even left the manifold........
now if each foot of 1" adds 1.33 ft head, then 3/4 adds at least 1.5(and probly more i suspect)ft head
so even at 1.5 you got 6x 3=18x1.5=27 ft head (this is conservative)
27=9=36 ft head and thats splitting to six lines going six feet up.


im not saying thats right...how would you calculate it????

[organicreefer]

no that cant be right ...someone chime in here calculate it...thats not right...im all confused now