[B-n-B]

What are some of the better bulbs out there. Starting a new tank, want to make sure I get it right.

Thanks
B-n-B

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by B-n-B

What are some of the better bulbs out there. Starting a new tank, want to make sure I get it right.

Thanks
B-n-B

Hi B-n-B, welcome to Reefland!

If you are asking about double-ended lamps in 10,000K color temperature, Ushio/BLV makes a good one as does AB-Aqualine. Ice-Cap is marketing a new 150w 10,000K HQI DE lamp under their own brand name that is manufactured in Germany by one of the German manufacturers.

There are some newer lamps on the market that are being imported from China but I'm not all that familiar with them yet. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the three brands mentioned in my first paragraph.

What size is your aquarium?

[Wind]

i've heard that the ones from china won't last as long as the ones from germany.. the lfs in Hong Kong told me. therefore the price is a big difference..

[B-n-B]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Hi B-n-B, welcome to Reefland!

If you are asking about double-ended lamps in 10,000K color temperature, Ushio/BLV makes a good one as does AB-Aqualine. Ice-Cap is marketing a new 150w 10,000K HQI DE lamp under their own brand name that is manufactured in Germany by one of the German manufacturers.

There are some newer lamps on the market that are being imported from China but I'm not all that familiar with them yet. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the three brands mentioned in my first paragraph.

What size is your aquarium?

It's 74 gallons 36*24*20

[bowfront]

Another bulb to consider is the Iwasaki 50k DE. It's available at Reef Geek:

http://www.reefgeek.com/products/cat...ng/104284.html

This bulb is not really a 50k more like a 14k. I used to run 10k 150w AB's over a 72g along with VHO actinic and could grow just about anything. Sometimes I wonder why I switched to 250w DE's. If I had stuck with the 150w DE's I'd be trying the Iwasaki 50k DE.

[big 5]

i'm was running 2 150w de 20,000k and sps do not work only softys

all sps were losing color and no growth untill i upgraded to 250w

[B-n-B]

Originally Posted by big 5

i'm was running 2 150w de 20,000k and sps do not work only softys

all sps were losing color and no growth untill i upgraded to 250w

What size tank are you running.

B-n-B

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by big 5

i'm was running 2 150w de 20,000k and sps do not work only softys

all sps were losing color and no growth untill i upgraded to 250w

The only 20,000K 150w HQI DE lamp I am familiar with is the Ushio/BLV Colorlite and it is much, much dimmer (less PAR) than their 150w 10,000K HQI DE lamp. It has a nice blue appearance but not much PAR.

[scubadude]

Anyone know where to get these Sylvania Aqua Arc 10k DE 150w bulbs from? I cant find them anywhere on the net. Sanjays test are showing them as a very good output (PPFD) bulb for the Icecap 150w HQI ballast. I would just like to price them with my next contender which would be the XDE 150w 10k bulb

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by scubadude

Anyone know where to get these Sylvania Aqua Arc 10k DE 150w bulbs from? I cant find them anywhere on the net. Sanjays test are showing them as a very good output (PPFD) bulb for the Icecap 150w HQI ballast. I would just like to price them with my next contender which would be the XDE 150w 10k bulb

Rocky,

I can't find them anywhere either. They don't show up on Sylvania's U.S. website. In fact, the only metal halides that show up there are mogul based 4200K.

Did you see Sanjay's test on this lamp back in 2002? It's not exactly awe-inspiring when it comes to it's spectral distribution. It's CCT measured only 7844, which is nowhere near its claimed 10,000K. Looks like Sanjay didn't think much of it: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2/feature2.htm

P.S. -- Are you sure they're being marketed in the U.S. under the Sylvania brand? Sylvania is part of Osram GmbH, which in turn is part of Siemens AG.

[scubadude]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Rocky,

.....
P.S. -- Are you sure they're being marketed in the U.S. under the Sylvania brand? Sylvania is part of Osram GmbH, which in turn is part of Siemens AG.

Not sure actually, I just did a search for bulb analysis using the IC hqi 150 Ballast to compare which bulb I wanted to search the market for. Have you seen this link? its quite nifty

http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/

If you click on the link above that says "search performance data" then clik on the link that says ballast I put in the IC 150 HQI and it gives me itemized data for what im looking for in a bulb...price, PFD, and 10k, and I want it shielded...I went with that info and came to conclusion of the Aqua Arc..thats the only data I have on that bulb...Actually was the first time I ever heard of it. So correct me if Im wrong but the CCT is the spectrum that we need for the corals right? Or am I off? Skewl me on CCT bro

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by scubadude

Not sure actually, I just did a search for bulb analysis using the IC hqi 150 Ballast to compare which bulb I wanted to search the market for. Have you seen this link? its quite nifty

http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/

If you click on the link above that says "search performance data" then clik on the link that says ballast I put in the IC 150 HQI and it gives me itemized data for what im looking for in a bulb...price, PFD, and 10k, and I want it shielded...I went with that info and came to conclusion of the Aqua Arc..thats the only data I have on that bulb...Actually was the first time I ever heard of it. So correct me if Im wrong but the CCT is the spectrum that we need for the corals right? Or am I off? Skewl me on CCT bro

Rocky,

Yes, I have seen Sanjay forum over there. It's VERY nice. BTW, if you input the 150w Sylvania Aqua-Arc and then let it show you all the ballasts tested, you will notice that Ice-Cap's ballast causes it to measure 75 PPFD but there is another ballast that caused it to read 95 PPFD.

I don't think I like it because of it's peak at 540 nm. CCT is it's correlated color temperature. Notice that in that article of Sanjay's that I linked for you, the AB 150w 10,000K (which they claim is really 13,000K) measured more than 12,000K -- so it's above 10,000K and pretty close to what they claim for it. The Sylvania Aqua-Arc should have measured closer to 10,000K but it measured only 7844K.

Also notice Sanjay's comment that if you are looking for a bluish-white appearance, either the AB or the Ice Cap would be fine. He says nothing about the Sylvania except that it's a strange lamp.

[scubadude]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Rocky,

Yes, I have seen Sanjay forum over there. It's VERY nice. BTW, if you input the 150w Sylvania Aqua-Arc and then let it show you all the ballasts tested, you will notice that Ice-Cap's ballast causes it to measure 75 PPFD but there is another ballast that caused it to read 95 PPFD.

Yeah Im with ya on the ballast but I got a good deal on the IC ballast and already bought it, so Im gonna stick with it and work from that. The ballast that you are refferring to is a the LampsNow ballast, which I dont know about you but I think they have changed alot in the past couple of years...is it me or do they seem to be a bit more expensive than they used to be. I do think Im gonna try and do a DIY regent-type pendant this is the one that I am looking at

http://www.arhomecenter.com/user/cat...roductId=99974

Supposedly this one already has the correct socket that will work for a 150w HQI bulb and I have heard that these sell at WM for about $7.

Originally Posted by Ninong

I don't think I like it because of it's peak at 540 nm. CCT is it's correlated color temperature. Notice that in that article of Sanjay's that I linked for you, the AB 150w 10,000K (which they claim is really 13,000K) measured more than 12,000K -- so it's above 10,000K and pretty close to what they claim for it. The Sylvania Aqua-Arc should have measured closer to 10,000K but it measured only 7844K.

Also notice Sanjay's comment that if you are looking for a bluish-white appearance, either the AB or the Ice Cap would be fine. He says nothing about the Sylvania except that it's a strange lamp.

Very interesting with the AB find! I have always liked these bulbs performance to the point where I have seen others bleach corals because they change to AB's and not compensate for the intensity difference not to mention the new vs old bulb. But the price on the AB bulbs show that they are a better bulb too I always research the cheaper ones first to see whos king in that arena. Sylvania IS a strange lamp...Not sanjays fault but hey if we cant get the bulbs then what good is the data to us? They darn near an Iwasaki bulb...give them time they seem new to the aquaria field. I was just curious on how much they would cost though. Im hoping to have a really good pendant DIY w/UV shield for about $150, thats my goal anyway with new bulb and ballast, and of course a very good par and spectral analysis. So basically the CCT is the ACTUAL Kelvin rating of the bulb not the advertised Kelvin rating right?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by scubadude

They darn near an Iwasaki bulb...give them time they seem new to the aquaria field.

Iwasaki lamps have more blue than that.

So basically the CCT is the ACTUAL Kelvin rating of the bulb not the advertised Kelvin rating right?

Correlated color temperature (CCT) is the lamp's Kelvin rating. If the manufacturer assigned the correct Kelvin rating, then the lamp's measured CCT should be the same, or nearly the same, as it's advertized CCT. Some manufacturers seem to assign whatever Kelvin rating they think will increase sales. They should be able to give fairly accurate Kelvin ratings to lamps of 13,000K or less. Osram-Radium doesn't pretent to assign a Kelvin rating to their "blau" lamp, the one everyone calls 20,000K. They just call it "blau" (blue). Which is an honest answer.

A good example of how confusing this subject can become would be Iwaski's decision to call their new 150w medium base lamp 50,000K. That seems a little absurd to me. It's a very nice color but it's not even as blue as most 14,000K or 20,000K lamps. And most people say that the 250w Radium "20,000K" is much bluer than the 400w Radium "20,000K" lamp. And then there is the fact that the 400w version is bluer on some ballasts than on others. Lots of different factors come into play.

The BLV 150w 20,000K HQI DE lamp is bluer by far than the Iwasaki 150w 50,000K medium base lamp.

[scubadude]

Excellent info George! very nicely done

Originally Posted by Ninong

Iwasaki lamps have more blue than that.

See its been a while since I conversed on lighting....Im still oldskewl bro! Saki always meant the ugly yellow 6500 CCT, but man what par readings they had! they use to have the DL mogul bulbs and nothing else really to speak of for us right?...now they into the market all heavy and hitting every angle they can.

Man it pays to ask! Now that I understand CCT I can basically envision what the bulb will look like w/out seeing a real pic of it, atleast w/ Sanjays test.

I dont know if its been tested by sanjay or not but do you know if he has tested time length and par depreciation as well as CCT rendering a change over time. If memory serves me correctly arent the DE's suppose to hold their PPFD for a little bit longer than the mogul based bulbs thus being more effecient in the term of duration life of the bulb?

Another thing that is throwing me off is everyone uses ansi codes to signify as part numbers and I went into an electrical parts distributor today asking them if they could get me an HQI DE ballast for ansi code M81 and they said I need more info than that....they actually said can you bring in the ballast....I said uhhhhh if I had the ballast I wouldnt be asking you for one :slap:

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by scubadude

Saki always meant the ugly yellow 6500 CCT, but man what par readings they had!

What I meant is that the 6500K Iwasaki lamps have more blue than the 150w Sylvania Aqua Arc. You can tell that from looking at the spectral distribution charts. The reason the 6500K Iwasaki lamps appear so yellowish to our eyes is because our eyes are more sensitive to light in the yellow-green range of the spectrum and Iwasakis have a lot of that, too.

Iwasaki 6500K is an excellent lamp for corals. There has never been any question about that. The only debate revolves around whether "we" like it or not. Which is a rather important point for most people. That's why so many people skip it in favor of other options.

Man it pays to ask! Now that I understand CCT I can basically envision what the bulb will look like w/out seeing a real pic of it, atleast w/ Sanjays test.

Sort of but it's not that simple. I like to look at the spectral distribution charts to see where the PPFD is going, if you know what I mean. But when it comes to deciding whether you like something or not, nothing beats seeing the thing in action in person.

I dont know if its been tested by sanjay or not but do you know if he has tested time length and par depreciation as well as CCT rendering a change over time. If memory serves me correctly arent the DE's suppose to hold their PPFD for a little bit longer than the mogul based bulbs thus being more effecient in the term of duration life of the bulb?

Yes, Sanjay did some testing on used 400w metal halide lamps a few years ago. Check his articles. He found that the 400w 20,000K Radiums degraded unevenly to the point where they should probably be replaced at least every six months. Some lamps degraded fairly evenly across the spectrum. IIRC, the Iwasakis were pretty good at holding up longer than most. To put it another way, you might want to replace your lamps after they have lost say 30%, or maybe even 40%, of their intensity... BUT... what if your lamp loses 30% of it's intensity in one part of the spectrum much faster than the rest of the spectrum? Then what do you do? Do you throw away a lamp after only three months because it has dropped 30% in that part of the spectrum even though it's overall intensity is only down by say 17%?

[scubadude]

Originally Posted by Ninong

BUT... what if your lamp loses 30% of it's intensity in one part of the spectrum much faster than the rest of the spectrum? Then what do you do? Do you throw away a lamp after only three months because it has dropped 30% in that part of the spectrum even though it's overall intensity is only down by say 17%?

Hmmm well if you had a fairly large tank with multiple MH's then you could have a 1mo. old bulb and a new bulb and I always thought rotating the bulbs every month or so could possibly adapt your corals to a set schedule if you used the same bulbs naturally (just didnt buy them all at the same time, one at atime)? And if the setup was large enough with a seperate large fuge that was lit by the same bulb you could always use the black sheep bulb on the fuge. That would be one way to squeeze every penny out of a bulb.

[Ninong]

Remember when Dr. Mac was touting the 400w Radium 20,000K lamps as the only way to go? Back when that was all that he used? He stretched his to 12 months by gradually lowering them closer and closer to the water's surface.

That was back when he thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. Now that he has switched to another brand, he's quick to point out that the Radiums shifted way too fast and that he was stretching things by running them as long as he did. He likes his new lamps better because he says they don't degrade nearly as fast and not nearly as unevenly.

When Sanjay ran his tests several years ago on used lamps, his conclusion was that they all lose intensity over time, as expected, but that some of them lose it more unevenly than others. He determined that the Iwasaki 6500K lamps not only lasted much longer than any of the others, but they also didn't shift as quickly as some of the others. He pointed out the Radium 400w 20,000K lamps as being the worst for uneven degradation coupled with a much quicker loss of intensity when compared to other lamps. IIRC he suggested that the Iwasakis could be run for at least 18 months, the Ushio 10,000K (& probably AB-10000) for at least 12 months and the Radium 20,000K for no more than 6-9 months. The six month recommendation was based on it's uneven loss of intensity and the 9 months represented what Sanjay considered it final useful life based on total loss of intensity.

It could very well be that that is a factor of the Kelvin rating. Maybe it's just natural for a 6500K lamp to last longer and degrade more evenly across it's spectral distribution than a higher Kelvin lamp? Maybe all 20,000K lamps should be replaced sooner than 10,000K lamps?

[charlie]

I hear ya on the 20K radiums. I replace mine every 9 months, whether they are run on a pulse start or HQI ballast.