[Chicago]

anyone remeber reading an article with info on 250 hgi vs. 400 watt? i rember it having a comparison chart and the end result seemed to indicate that the 250 hqi was better than a 400 watt. higher kelvin and par...thanks all

[MtnDewMan]

Are you looking for this thread?
http://www.reefland.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000942.html

I love my HQI setup ... Love the color better than the Iwasaki and I am getting better coral coloration from it as well.

[golfish]

I run both, 2x250 watt 10K HQI's in PFO mini pendants and a single 400 watt Iwasaki in a reflector with 4x55 watt blue PC's. The Iwasaki blows the HQI's away. This is the only 400 watt bulb that has more par than the 250 watt HQI. The real good thing about the HQI's is you don't need to supplement them with TONS of actinic light to make them look good. It takes 4x55 watt blue PC's to make the Iwasaki the same color as the 10K's. The one bad thing about the HQI's is they don't have a real big light spread like the big MH bulbs in the big relectors...

Perry will have much better info on this than I do...

Mark

[This message has been edited by golfish (edited 05-25-2001).]

[PerryinCA]

I remember touching on this when Mark was looking into his setup. My personl experience has been that the HQI pendants will do OK over 2'x2' square if they are 8+ inches off the top of the water. Personally I lik ehaving my lights as close to the water as possible (about 3-5") and with that I'd say they have a coverage of about 20". There is a noticable shadow in the upper corners of the tank on the side with the HQI, but there is complete coverage with the Reeflector (like the Spiderlights). I would feel comfortable with 2 HQI on a 48" tank, but for anything bigger (48"-60") I would rather use 400w, or 250 Iwasaki with the parabolic reflector.

The 250w HQI and Iwasaki seem to put out excellent light levels. The only major step up would be the 400w Iwasaki, or 1000w lamps.

-Perry

[andy-hipkiss]

Dunno if its the voltage or the frequency differences over here in Europe, but the figures that Joshi/Morgan showed for the 10KK 400W are a million miles away from I'm measuring.

Strange indeed,I'd be hesitant in reading too much into the 250W / 400W debate based on these figures. As far as I can tell, the Iwasaki is around 20% more PAR than the 10KK (Ushio/BLV), not the 100% as the figures show. And since the Iwasaki has a significant yellow output that is classed as PAR, I'd even suggest the Ushio provide MORE useful light to the coral than the Iwasaki.

One further point, from what I've seen, there is practically no difference in output between double and single ended bulbs for the same wattage (at least in terms of the Ushio's, which we in Europe know as BLV's ... they actually make them, Ushio is the parent company).

FWIW


------------------
Cheers
Andy
http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk

[PerryinCA]

Originally posted by andy-hipkiss:

Strange indeed,I'd be hesitant in reading too much into the 250W / 400W debate based on these figures. As far as I can tell, the Iwasaki is around 20% more PAR than the 10KK (Ushio/BLV), not the 100% as the figures show. And since the Iwasaki has a significant yellow output that is classed as PAR, I'd even suggest the Ushio provide MORE useful light to the coral than the Iwasaki.

Andy, could you explain this a little more. Specifically the part about the yellow. From everything I have seen the Iwasaki puts out more light in the high frequency part of the spectrum than the mogul ended 10k. Also, are you saying that the 600+ part of the spectrum is pretty much irrelevent? Everything I know about photosynthetic science says otherwise, regardless of carrier. Chlorophyll is chlorophyll, and its actually more responsive to photons in that spectrum.

-Perry

[Ninong]

Hi Andy ~

I would be inclined to have a high level of confidence in the procedures and equipment employed by Dr. Joshi in his metal halide lamp testing. I do wish he had been able to test more samples of each lamp and each ballast. He did use several samples of each lamp but he used only one sample of each ballast. It would be nice if the tests had been conducted using 5 samples of each ballast. He did use 5 samples of each lamp (at least he did in his most recent study).

You cannot accurately measure PAR with an Apogee sensor; you need a spectroradiometer, which costs several thousand dollars. According to Dr. Joshi, the numbers that he published are not written in stone, mainly because of the fact that he used only a single sample of each ballast and the manufacturing tolerances for ballasts could be as high as +/- 20%.

You raise an excellent point about what was actually measured and what is important for photosynthesis in corals. The PPFD numbers are strictly a quantitative measurement of the number of photons incident per square meter per second. Sanjay points that out in his articles and mentions that the spectral analysis charts have to be compared, too, since they are extremely important. So even if lamp A measured 125 PPFD and lamp B measured 125 PPFD, they may not be of equal benefit to the coral because not all wavelengths are equal in photosynthesis.

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

P.S. - Andy, I noticed one of your Acropora colonies came from Equinoxe. Can you get mail order shipments of livestock from France or did you bring it back with you on the plane? -- or maybe you drove through the chunnel???

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"First, we would not accept a treaty that would not have been ratified, nor a treaty that I thought made sense for the country."— George W. Bush, On the Kyoto accord in an interview with the Washington Post, April 24, 2001

[andy-hipkiss]

Hi Perry,

I think I said yellow light not red which is what you mentioned. The photosynthetic value of light between 500-620 nm is marginal as far as I am aware.

Regarding double vs single ... I merely have figures for BLV and there's no notable difference between their single and double ended bulbs. By implication, I'm suggesting that the format of the bulb, be it brand x or y, is not significant (oooh broad generalisation there [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img] )

Ninong .... nah I work over in Paris fairly regularly so I get to go to Equinoxe and bring back stuff as hand luggage on the plane. It's a brilliant place on a par with RSI over in Hayward, CA (can't remeber, the retail name, Blue Cove or Blue Coral I think) in terms of some of the best LFS's I've seen in the world. Things change, it's been 4 or 5 years since I was there, so someones bound to say RSI are terrible now, just to prove me wrong [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

------------------
Cheers
Andy
http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk



[This message has been edited by andy-hipkiss (edited 05-27-2001).]

[Ninong]

Andy ~

That's funny... you've been to some of the same aquarium stores I've been to. The Blue Cove closed about three years back but Lance Blankenship reopened on Railroad Avenue in Danville as Reef Science Aquarium http://www.reefscience.com/index.html

It's still a very nice place.

The store you are thinking of that is in Hayward is on C Street and it's called Aquarium Concepts. PerryinCA works there part-time one or two days a month so that he can scoop up good deals. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

Speaking about lighting, check out this guy's site: http://ghchhilojack.homestead.com/Acropora.html

He has 2200 watts of metal halide over a 54-gal corner tank filled with SPS. (I didn't count the measly actinic fluorescents in that number.) Obviously his SPS have extremely high inhibition points and it is plain to see that he is beyond the saturation point everywhere in the tank. I'm not recommending that, I just like looking at the colors. [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

P.S. - Perry would probably go higher than Hilo Jack did except that there is sort of an energy crisis in California right now and the cost of electricity is going sky high. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

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"First, we would not accept a treaty that would not have been ratified, nor a treaty that I thought made sense for the country."— George W. Bush, On the Kyoto accord in an interview with the Washington Post, April 24, 2001

[andy-hipkiss]

Ninong,

Ooops, yes I meant Danville. And I knew someone would prove me wrong ... can't get much more wrong than them no longer being there [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

I did go to Hayward as well, it was just after they had changed locations so the shop only had (great) "potential" at the time.

Oh and I've seen Phillip's site before .. seriously wow! Wish I had the money to run 3x400W Radiums, let alone the 1kW 12KK (even if it is on for only a couple of hours a day) ... what kind of chiller would you need with that little lot!



------------------
Cheers
Andy
http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk

[andy-hipkiss]

Perry,

Just been looking at the Absorption spectra based on Montastra annularis (Dustan '82 ... as in Tyree RBSC1), and its quite interesting. Yellow light (~590nm) is only half as "useful" as blue (~480nm) based on a sample taken from 2.5M ... based on a sample from a colony at 8M its only a third as useful. I would guess that these are around the depths that alot of our coral is collected. However we tend to light our tanks far less that natural levels so in many tanks, the deeper figures are more relevant (?).

Therefore I shouldn't have been quite so hard on yellow light. However there is a big difference between absoption and gaining benefit as the accesory pigments are less efficient cf. chlorophyll A&C.

Considering that A is blue and red, C1 and C2 are blue and peridin is blue in terms of its absorption spectra then the cards are heavily stacked in terms of blue.

What's your take?

------------------
Cheers
Andy
http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk

[andy-hipkiss]

Ninong,

I agree with practically everthing you say.

Interesting about the oxygen production. I must admit that I'd discounted the rate of O2 production , but I can recall my reasoning. Lemme back to you later or tomorrow (its evening here) if you don't mind.

One thing (pet theory) that I wasn't going to introduce so early into my membership here but might be appropriate. We know that corals have photorecptors to certain wavelengths, for example you can monochromatically light a coral with "red" light and the poor thing photoadapts thinking it is in shallow water, and promptly dies thru lack of light energy. Now turn that around a little when dealing with pigmentation. High UV doesn't help particularly since the pigments are colourless. However, LACK of red light seems to prompt the coral (as a system) into over-producing acessory pigments in order to capture the blue-green wavelengths .. and these are coloured (to a great or lessrt extent). Now two things may occur as a consequence, firstly if we can supply enough (non-red) PAR then further photoadaption will occur such that the coral doesn't go brown. Secondly, less light is required since the coral is adapting to what it thinks are deep water conditions.

I am thinking particularly of Tyree's (and Phillip's) high Radium usage. Now as far as PAR goes, then these bulbs appear terrible ... now obviously nobody has told the corals!

What do you think?

------------------
Cheers
Andy
http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk

[Ninong]

I think that Steve Tyree is on the right track. He uses a combination of 10,000K and 20,000K metal halides over his SPS. This not only gives him more than enough PAR, it gives him beautiful coloration--probably more beautiful than he would get using 6500K metal halides, IMHO. [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

There is no question about the ability of the same species of Acropora to thrive at 4-ft or at 40-ft, or even deeper. It adapts in many different ways, even to the point of having three or four entirely different shapes. This is in addition to the obvious adaptation involving zooxanthellae.

I think the main reason so many people like the 6500K Iwasaki lamps is that it is a terrific value. You get a lot of bang for your money. Personally, I would be more inclined to want to duplicate Steve Tyree's results. I am close to setting up my reef tank at the present time and am seriously considering adding 20,000K in a separate fixture to supplement my 10,000K HQI double-ended lamps. (I realize this is overkill and not something that is actually needed for the corals to thrive--2x250w 10,000K HQI double-ended lamps is more than adequate for a 120-gal tank--but when you look at the coloration in Tyree's tanks, or the coloration in HiloJack's tank, it gives you wild ideas. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img] )

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

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"It's very important for folks to understand that when there's more trade, there's more commerce."— George W. Bush, Quebec City, Canada, April 21, 2001

[PerryinCA]

I think your throwing some good ideas/points out there Andy, and agree with most points made. Do have a couple questions for you, but they'll have to wait till I get home from work. Out the door,

Perry

[Chicago]

ninong, is there a post of pictures of steve's sps tank?

also if the tank i prodcutions is 31" deep, 31 high and 96" long what are all or your recomendations...looks l;ike you all are saying go with the 400 watt 10 k bulbs and maybe3 supplement them with a 20k and some atinics...vho attinics?

also what bulbsd you would you recomend? are there any electronic ballasts out there at this wattage?

[Ninong]

chicago ~

Here is a pic of Steve Tyree's 180-gal SPS tank. (No, I can't explain the coralline on the front glass.)


Here is the link to his site: http://www.dynamicecomorphology.com

If you remember the pics on HiloJack's site http://ghchhilojack.homestead.com/Acropora.html (the 54-gal tank with 2200 watts of metal halides), virtually all of his SPS came from Steve Tyree.

I don't know what to recommend for your tank because I don't know how crazy you want to get with the lighting. I believe I may have used this same answer once before in a previous post about your tank. [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

In fact, I believe I may have mentioned in a previous post that you are close to the size where you could consider 1000w metal halides. I don't remember if I was serious or not, probably not. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img] If you told me your tank was 36" deep and 36" wide, then I wouldn't feel so stupid talking about 1000w metal halides. The biggest problem there would be heat issues and cost. Also, they should be at least 20" above the surface.

Anyway, getting back down to earth, you might want to think about either of two different approaches:

(1) Use 4x400w Iwasaki 6500K metal halides in parallel reflectors (to maximize the spread front to back) plus 8x110w URI VHO Super Actinics (or at least 4x160w ones). You could substitute some combination of PC actinics instead of the VHO actinics if you prefer PCs.

(2) Go for a much more expensive lighting setup that would include 10,000K HQI and 20,000K HQI, with a small amount of actinic supplementation mostly for dawn/dusk effect--either PC actinics or VHO actinics. (You could use 3x400w 10,000K--either AB or Ushio--and 2x400w 20,000K Osram/Radium, all run on PFO HQI ballasts, plus 2x160w URI Super Actinics mostly for dawn/dusk effect. The 20,000K lamps would be between the 10,000K lamps and offset slightly to the rear of the tank--this would enhance the perception of depth.)

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

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"It's very important for folks to understand that when there's more trade, there's more commerce."— George W. Bush, Quebec City, Canada, April 21, 2001

[PerryinCA]

Well, just got done adding a 3rd 250w MH to my tank. That gives me 3 250's (2 Iwasaki, 1 HQI for time being) and 3 VHO, 2 actinic, 1 aquasun. I have to say it looks ALOT better with the added light. I really can't tell a huge difference from the Iwasaki to the HQI, tank looks white all across. I'll make a little page and upload to show it a little later. Now if only I couold get the temp thing down.....

I have also been thinking about adding a 20k in the center, or possibly a 10k AB. I will wait and see.

-Perry

[Ninong]

Andy ~

Perry is actually running his own experiment over his 90-gal tank right now. For the past several weeks he has been running a 250w 6500K Iwasaki lamp on the left side of the tank and a 250w 10,000K Ushio/BLV double-ended lamp over the right side of the tank. He hasn't finished his experiment yet but he already knows that he prefers the 10,000K HQI double-ended lamp.

One of the other members, Atlantis (Brian Conger), who raises and sells a lot of SPS frags, is presently conducting an experiment using 400w 10,000K metal halides vs. 400w 6500K Iwasaki metal halides. He is using identical frags from the same colony under both lamps and will post growth measurements and color comparisons as the experiment proceeds.

Yes, the action spectrum is not directly related to the absorption spectrum but it is interesting that regardless of the available light, corals still manage to make the most of what is available even when the available light is only 10% PARS. According to the same source you referenced (Dustan, 1982), based on excretion of oxygen (relative units) by zooxanthellae in the coral Favia, the measurement is 7 units at 400nm, 11.5 units at 440nm, 9 units at 500nm, 7 units at 520nm, 8 units at 540nm, 6 units at 610nm, and then 10 units at 670nm (which is the second highest peak, second only to the peak at 440nm). (I'm transferring data from a graph here.) As you pointed out, the rate of photosynthesis in zooxanthellae per unit of assimilation pigment varies based on the pigment.

IMO if you provide sufficient radiant energy (of whatever wavelength) to drive photosynthesis efficiently enough to provide for the metabolic requirements of the zooxanthellae and have enough energy left over to translocate assimilates to the host polyps to meet all of their metabolic needs, the exact wavelength of the source doesn't really matter. It only matters when it comes to apparent coloration of the coral.

I believe this is why one can see excellent growth in various reef tanks that employ entirely different lighting. If the quantity of light is there, the growth will be there. The quality of light would have an impact on the efficiency of photosynthesis and on the perceived coloration of the corals.

Ninong [img]/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

P.S. - Here is an excerpt from Coral Reef Ecology, Yuri I. Sorokin (1995)--Please bear in mind that this was translated from Russian to German to English. [img]/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

"The spectra of absorption of visible light in zooxanthellae have the main maxima at 440 and 670 nm, and also additional but significant ones at 470-500 and 540 nm (Fig. 8.2). The latter are connected with the function of PCP, mentioned above (Leletkin and Zvalinski 1981). The curves of action spectra in their pigment system were estimated by measuring the rates of ^14CO2 consumption at different wavelengths of light (Scott and Jitts 1977), and those of the oxygen evolution (Halldall 1968; Zvalinski et al. 1980). They differ from the curves of the absorption spectra, and this difference is most significant just in the range of action of PSP -- 470-600 nm (Fig. 8.3). It proves how important their role is in light absorption by zooxanthellae in deep reef habitats where blue-green light dominates. The absorption maximum at 350-500 nm was especially well expressed in zooxanthellae of symbiotic gorgonaceans, which are known to be enduring well light deficiency (Fig. 8.4). The mechanism of light adaptation in zooxanthellae is connected with their ability to enlarge the size of their photosynthesis units (PSU) -- the protein-pigment complexes, which primarily absorb light energy and then transfer it to the reaction centers of photosystems I and II. The average size of PSU in corals adapted to a low light was 1.5 times greater than in corals living in normal light (Leletkin and Zvalinski 1981)."

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"First, we would not accept a treaty that would not have been ratified, nor a treaty that I thought made sense for the country."— George W. Bush, On the Kyoto accord in an interview with the Washington Post, April 24, 2001

[sher]

so which one is better? 2 10k HQI 250w or 2 10k 400w over a 40gal breeder(trying to get the same color as hilojacks corals) yes, i am willing to go to the extrem, but not the 1kw level. any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. as this lighting thing is giving me migraines!

oh yeh, is their really a performance difference in those 2 that i listed?

[PerryinCA]

sher,

According to the data Sanjay compiled regarding multiple lamps and their output, the HQI had a better output. However, according to him, a variance of 20% from one lamp and ballast to another set of the same make is possible.

I think whatever road you go, you'll get good color. Oneother thing to consider is heat. The 250w'ers would put out less heat, and over a 36 inch tank should provide plenty of coverage.

-Perry