[RossandMandyProject]

I have a 150gal fowlr now and want to get into corrals and etc. my tank is 72X24X30 and I purchased 5 compact florescents from a wholesaler. since I put them in everything is going great including yellow,brown algie 3 days and you cant see the glass or the bed if left alone. Will this go away or should I look for something different? My lfs told me that if I put up 4 4foot 50/50 tubes, 1 actinic bulb, and 2 30" 10,000K bulbs I should be fine for ALL low light corals. Any advice? I am not sure what to do. please help!!!!

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by RossandMandyProject

I have a 150gal fowlr now and want to get into corrals and etc. my tank is 72X24X30

You need to measure your tank again. Either that or you don't have a 150-gal tank. If the tank measures what you say it measures, it's a 225-gal.

...and I purchased 5 compact florescents from a wholesaler. since I put them in everything is going great including yellow,brown algie 3 days and you cant see the glass or the bed if left alone. Will this go away or should I look for something different? My lfs told me that if I put up 4 4foot 50/50 tubes, 1 actinic bulb, and 2 30" 10,000K bulbs I should be fine for ALL low light corals.

I'm not sure what you have??? Assuming your tank is 72" long and 30" high, why would you use 4' fluorescents? And what are the 5 compact fluorescents that you installed? Are these 96w (36") lamps? And why five? Why not two, four or six?

If your tank is 30" tall as you say it is, then compact fluorescents are not a very good choice for a reef aquarium. While it is certainly possible to go with compact fluorescents or VHO fluorescents over such a tank, most people would choose metal halides.

As far as the advice your LFS has given you, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever given the dimensions of your tank.

Your algae situation is another issue altogether. If your tank is fairly new, then you will experience a certain sequence of algae blooms. This is quite normal and usually is over and done with in a matter of weeks, assuming your water parameters are under control. I'm not sure what you mean by "yellow" algae but the brown algae is probably just diatoms. They should go away within a couple of weeks.

P.S. -- I just noticed in your profile that you have an Oceanic 150-gal tank. That tank would have exterior dimensions of approximately 72"L x 18"W x 28"H.

[RossandMandyProject]

ok here we go :-) The size is right that you had 72X18X24 the lighting that I bought were spiral compacts to hang over the tank 105watts each at like I said about 6K the tank is 4 months old. I had a huge infestation of red algie for about 2 to 3 weeks but that subsided and went away and everything was crystal clear until I put these up. Coinsadence??? I'm not sure but it seems unlikely. The reason for the 4" tubes was that they had the fixtures (at my LFS) on hand they wouldn't have to order anything for me on the chance that I go online and buy somewhere else was the only thing I could think of. He said that was the way to go for replacing the bulbs also, they are cheaper than metal halides to buy and cheaper than replacing a 72" light, he was also trying to sell me an 8" bulb for the same reason but I told him that 2 foot hanging over the end of my tank was redikulous and that was when I left there and thought I'd try some xpert advice here!! I dont have a protein skimmer either I am not sure if tht would help or not. Oh- he said that he doesnt sell metal halide because of the heat issue- "If you have to cool your water because of the lights that is wasted money and what are you going to do when your chiller gives out on you and kill's a $1000 worth of fish and invert's" I see his point there but WTH!! I am SSOOOO glad y'all are here to help. that is the scoop- please help me to figure this out and if you have any good outlet to get relatively inexpensive halide I could use some pointers. Thanks again

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by RossandMandyProject

ok here we go :-) The size is right that you had 72X18X24 the lighting that I bought were spiral compacts to hang over the tank 105watts each at like I said about 6K

I've never heard of these fixtures for an aquarium. Chances are they are not going to work out at all.

...the tank is 4 months old. I had a huge infestation of red algie for about 2 to 3 weeks but that subsided and went away...

"Red algae" as in "slime algae" (cyanobacteria) or "red algae" as in something else???

and everything was crystal clear until I put these up. Coinsadence??? I'm not sure but it seems unlikely.

Light is one of the factors that influence the growth of algae but nitrates and phosphates are even more important.

The reason for the 4" tubes was that they had the fixtures (at my LFS) on hand they wouldn't have to order anything for me...

Prices online are usually much cheaper than prices at the LFS for light fixtures. A 4' fixture is really not a good choice for a 6' long tank.

He said that was the way to go for replacing the bulbs also, they are cheaper than metal halides to buy and cheaper than replacing a 72" light, he was also trying to sell me an 8" bulb for the same reason but I told him that 2 foot hanging over the end of my tank was redikulous and that was when I left there and thought I'd try some xpert advice here!!

I think you must mean he was trying to sell you an 8' long fixture, not an 8' long "bulb." I don't believe anyone makes 8' long lamps but I could be wrong. I can't believe he would sell you a fixture that was two feet longer than your tank but I guess if he was willing to sell you a fixture that was two feet shorter than your tank, then who know what he might recommend next???

Lesson No. 1: The LFS is in business to make money. Period. They are not in business to look out for your best interests. They are in business to look out for their best interests. The fact that looking out for your best interests should be in their best interest escapes most of them.

I dont have a protein skimmer either I am not sure if tht would help or not.

Yes, a protein skimmer is a valuable addition to a 150-gal reef aquarium. It is definitely something you should consider. A decent one will set you back a few hundred bucks.

Oh- he said that he doesnt sell metal halide because of the heat issue- "If you have to cool your water because of the lights that is wasted money and what are you going to do when your chiller gives out on you and kill's a $1000 worth of fish and invert's" I see his point there but WTH!!

His only point is that he does not currently sell either metal halides or chillers. One of the LFS that is located about 38 miles from my house used to tell all their customers that the reason they didn't sell metal halides or use them over their own display reef tank was because "metal halides will burn your corals." Now that they sell both chillers and metal halides, their display reef tank has been reconfigured to include both! They even have a little glass panel in the door in the stand where the chiller is housed so that you can see the chiller without having to open the door. Both metal halides and chillers are now important for the successful reef aquarium according to their employees.

I am SSOOOO glad y'all are here to help. that is the scoop- please help me to figure this out and if you have any good outlet to get relatively inexpensive halide I could use some pointers. Thanks again

You could browse through the list of Sponsors and visit some of their websites to view various lighting options and protein skimmers, etc. I don't know if you have a canopy over your tank or not. If it is a standard 150-gal Oceanic tank on a standard Oceanic stand with the standard Oceanic canopy, then you may be limited in your lighting options unless you modify the Oceanic canopy.

If you do not have a canopy and are considering operating the tank as an open-top tank, then there are a variety of very nice fixtures that can be suspended over the tank. Properly lighting a 150-gal reef aquarium is going to cost you a minimum of $1000 and could easily run $1500.

[RossandMandyProject]

thanks for the advice on the lighting I am going to consider getting the metal halides, that wounds like the way to go, even though the thought of spending another thousand is kinda hard to swallow after all that I have invested. However the thought of not lighting an investment of this calibur is just assinine. I hope that I choose the right ammont of light - from what it seem 6 watts per gallon is standard. Does anyone know if that will cause a huge algie bloom??? I sure hope not. I dont have a hood over my tank yet, but I have been considering them. My wife currently doesnt like how they look, she says they are too bulky and make the tank look funny but when the lights are installed she may change her mind !! However from the all the searching that I have done it seem that lighting prices are about standard no matter where you look, very little discrepency . I really appreciate all the help that you and reefland have for us! Thanks again. Ross and Mandy

ps if anybody has anyother advice please feel free to post as I will be checking back frequently! Ross

[NoSump]

Ninong:

I have a related question to this string. I am about to "fire up" my lighting next week. Prior to doing so, I was planning on purchasing an "Algae Attack Pack" from LiveAquaria.com. Based on other posts that I have seen, the introduction of certain types of snails or crabs can create problems down the road.

1) Are hermit crabs and snails (margarita, turbo, etc.) an effective defense against the growth of unwanted algae?

2) What types are the most effective/what should be avoided?

3) Do the crabs and snails grow to the point that they begin to have a negative impact on the asthestics of the tank?

4) I understand that there are also snails that control detritus. Are there critters that control both detritus and algae?


Thank you.

Chuck

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

Ninong:

I have a related question to this string. I am about to "fire up" my lighting next week. Prior to doing so, I was planning on purchasing an "Algae Attack Pack" from LiveAquaria.com. Based on other posts that I have seen, the introduction of certain types of snails or crabs can create problems down the road.

I just looked up "algae attack pack" on www.liveaquaria.com to see what you're talking about and found this page: http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/s...0&TopCatId=420

Which "attack pack" are you considering? I can't believe the number of Mexican turbo snails they are recommending!

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...cfm?pCatId=520
45 for a 100-gal tank, 55 for a 125-gal tank!

I have three of those clumsy monsters in my 120-gal tank and I can't imagine having 40 or 50 of them in there!

1) Are hermit crabs and snails (margarita, turbo, etc.) an effective defense against the growth of unwanted algae?

Hermit crabs are iffy in reef tanks. Some folks like 'em, others don't. I have a few scarlet reef hermits but I sure wouldn't want too many more and I wouldn't want any of the other species of hermits.

Margarita snails are inappropriate for tropical water temps. I wouldn't bother with those.

Turbo and trochus snails are effective. Exactly which species are you thinking of getting?

2) What types are the most effective/what should be avoided?

I think Trochus snails are good for reef tanks and they're not as large or clumsy as the huge Mexican turbo snails. A few Mexican turbo snails go a long way. Most Astraea spp. can't get up if they fall on their backs on the sand bed, which means that if you have hermits, too, then your fallen snails become hors d'oeuvres. Repeat after me: Escargot!

Cerith snails are nice. Nerites are OK, too. Stomatella varia are great and they will multiply in your tank. Nassarius vibex are cool if you have a sand bed but they don't eat algae -- just carrion and meaty detritus.

3) Do the crabs and snails grow to the point that they begin to have a negative impact on the asthestics of the tank?

Most of the hermit crab species they are commonly sold for reef tanks don't get much larger than about 1" across. True crabs, such as emerald crabs, can get much larger and they can be a threat once they grow up because their diet changes from mostly herbivorous to mostly carnivorous. You really need to specify exactly which species of crab or snail you are asking about because it's not good to generalize, there are too many variables.

4) I understand that there are also snails that control detritus. Are there critters that control both detritus and algae?

Sure. The list is quite long. How large is your tank? Is it a reef tank? Do you have a sand bed? If so, how deep is it and what is its composition?

[NoSump]

Ninong:

Quote:
Sure. The list is quite long. How large is your tank? Is it a reef tank? Do you have a sand bed? If so, how deep is it and what is its composition?

Thanks - I have a 72 Gal. My substrate is a bed of crushed coral topped with 1" of sand. From previous posts, I have determined that I would have been better served by going with all sand. I cured live rock in my new tank for three weeks - at this point, I am concerned that if I replace my substrate I will lose some of the beneficial hitchhikers from the live rock.

I plan to gradually remove some of the crushed coral (with a slotted scoop) and continually add more sand (to a depth of 2 to 3 inches).

In terms of the "atack pack' - I also felt that the quantities were excessive, I had planned to purchase the smallest pack. I am now under the impression that I would do better simply building my own package by buing what I need from my local LFS (The Fish Place in Lancaster, PA).

[Ninong]

Yes, I agree with you about those prepackaged selections. I have never seen one that I would be willing to buy the way it was put together. You are better off making your own selections and you are always better off buying locally whenever something you want is available.

Your present substrate is problematic, as you have already learned. Crushed coral is much too large for many of the typical sand bed infauna and epifauna, and the crushed coral will all end up on the top within a few months. Holothurians (sand cukes), for example, need a fine particle sediment. Even some snails actually "consume" the sand particles to remove the bacterial and microalgal film from the surface of the particles before discharging them.

I believe your best bet is to remove your present substrate all at once and start over but I realize that's a radical approach.

[NoSump]

I believe your best bet is to remove your present substrate all at once and start over but I realize that's a radical approach.

Ninong:

Thanks - I'm, going to try to us a scoop seeve to get most the crushed coral from the bottom, and allow the fine sand to sift through. After about three scoops the tank will probably be so cloudy that I will have to put the whole project on hold.

In terms of my cleaner crew strategy what do you think about the following for a 72 Gallon tank (with my reconstituted 3" sandy substrate - which will undoubtedly still have a few bits of crushed coral mixed in)?

2 - Turbo Snails
5 - Trochus Snails
2 - Scarlet Hermit Crabs
5 - Dwarf Blue Leg Hermits
1- Fancy Serpent Star -tiger striped
8 - Nassarius Snails
8 - Cerith Snails (I might need more of these little guys)
3 - Bumble Bee Snails

And perhaps a Tiger Tail Sea Cucumber.

Do you (or any of the other experienced posters) think that this is an appropriate mix to provide algae and detritus protection. Frankly, I am not fond of either snails or crabs, as I feel that they detract from the appearance of the tank. My only reason for assembling the crew is because algae is even less appealing.

I know that there are various fish (such as the Yellow Tang) that consume algae. My impression is that the fish do not do as thorough of a job as the snails and crabs.

I have read that one of the reasons that some of the "docile" hermits consume snails is due to their need to acquire a larger shell. Evidently, if you leave several empty shells of various shapes and sizes in the tank, they are less likely to attempt a home takeover. In any event, the actual experiences of the seasoned reefers on this site carries more weight with me than the books and articles that I have read (remember it was a "Dummies" book that advised a substrate of both crushed coral and sand).

I have also read that the snails and crabs have notoriously short life spans. For that reason, I gather it will be a continued process of replenishing "outsourced" crew members.

Thanks.

[Poseidon]

Sorry, that list is a mile short of what you will actually need. Especially if you go with Metal Halides. I personally do not like ANY hermits. I witnessed 6 blue legs attack an Astrea snail right before my eyes, and it WASN'T for the shell, they were after a MEAL! I have about 100+ Astrea in my 135, and I still have to scrape the glass. Here is what I think would be a good crew, all are available from www.reeftopia.com as well.

Astrea Snails: 48
Cerith Snails: 24
Nassarious Vibex: 48
Nerite Snails: 12
Strombus Alatus: 1
Mexian Turbo: 2 or 3, these guys are bulldozers, but they eat ALOT of Algae!!!

And yes, you will have to replenish these occasionally. If you put in hermits it will be MORE OFTEN, if you skip the hermits maybe once a year you will spend money on snails!

By the way, once they are in the tank and spread out, you won't hardly notice them. Especially the Cerith and Nassarious Vibex, they will burrow into the sand. The Astrea and Mexican turbo come to the glass in large numbers at lights out, you will have a few when the lights are on, but you will only see 6-10 tops!

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

In terms of my cleaner crew strategy what do you think about the following for a 72 Gallon tank?

2 - Turbo Snails -- OK

5 - Trochus Snails -- OK

2 - Scarlet Hermit Crabs -- You could increase this to 6

5 - Dwarf Blue Leg Hermits -- No.

1- Fancy Serpent Star -tiger striped -- Probably OK, but always risky.

8 - Nassarius Snails -- Increase these to 16-20

8 - Cerith Snails (I might need more of these little guys) -- OK

3 - Bumble Bee Snails -- No.

And perhaps a Tiger Tail Sea Cucumber. -- OK

In addition to the above, I would proably add one small fighting conch (Strombus alatus), three or four Stomatella varia and 6 baby bristleworms (Eurythoe complanata). You might also consider 3 or 4 hair worms (aka spaghetti worms), 6 mini stars and 6 micro stars. The latter are two very tiny species of sea stars; one is a very tiny brittle star and the other is a very tiny white star. Neither species gets larger than about 1/2" across. With the exception of the fighting conch, all of the other proposed additions will multiply like crazy in your tank.

There is a Catch 22 that you are about to confront: You do NOT need a whole bunch of snails and other critters at this time because your tank is not yet established; however, the best prices for these critters are based on fairly large quantities. For example, if you order too many Nassarius vibex snails before your tank is producing enough carrion or meaty detritus for them to feed on, some of them will starve to death.

I have also read that the snails and crabs have notoriously short life spans.

Whoever wrote that was probably thinking of their life expectancy in captive reef aquaria, not their natural lifespans. Snails, in particular, can live for many years in the wild.

Good luck,

[NoSump]

Ninong:

Thanks. I thought that bristleworms were a pest species? You must be refering to a different variety.

Also, on the basis of your advice, I changed my substrate. What a pain! The scoop seeve was useless. I started out trying to remove a little at a time, and ended up removing the complete old subsrate. It's a damn shame because I had just goten all my tank parameters where they were supposed to be. I was getting ready to begin lighting my live rock and introducing cleaners.

So now I'm back to the old pea soup water again. At least this time, I know that it will eventually clear. Will this set me back to square one in terms of water parameters? Hopefully, PH, amonia, nitrite and nitrate will stay were they were. Based on the cloudy conditions, I thought it would be necesary to remove my live rock. Would the water/sand silt damage the rock critters?

Also I have shut down the canister filter - I didn't see the point of clogging it with silt. Thanks for your help, and I sure hope that the change over to an all sand base was worth it.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

Ninong:

Thanks. I thought that bristleworms were a pest species? You must be refering to a different variety.

The word "bristleworm" is applied to just about any of the polychaetes. It really has no real scientific meaning. There are some "bristleworms" that are indeed hazardous to the health of your reef tank but the great majority are harmless, beneficial scavengers. However, it is important to understand that many so-called hobby authorities are still convinced that all bristleworms are pests. So don't be surprised to find contradictory advice on this topic.

Will this set me back to square one in terms of water parameters? Hopefully, PH, amonia, nitrite and nitrate will stay were they were. Based on the cloudy conditions, I thought it would be necesary to remove my live rock. Would the water/sand silt damage the rock critters?

I doubt that you will see much change in your test results. There is no reason for ammonia to show up if that's what you are asking. It is not necessary to remove the live rock. The sand bed in the ocean is frequently disturbed by storms, etc. After your water has cleared up, you can blow off any sand from the live rock with a turkey baster.

[NoSump]

Ninong:

Thanks - I will put my rocks back in the tank tonight (I'm more comfortable with the parameters in my tank than I am with a 20 gallon plastic container).

The tropical playsand that I purchased from HD is a beautiful pure white and extremely fine - I'm sure that it will provide a better burrowing base for snails and other beneficial organisims than my mixed crushed coral/aragonite base.

I'll probably add the 80lbs of crushed coral to my boat slip (I have oyster shells as the base now).

My only remaining question on this thread concerns the beneficial organisms that came with my live rock. Is it likely that they had burrowed into the old sand within the three week curing process, and consequently are now lost? I did not go the live sand route, because I was of the opinion that if you waited long enough your live rock would lead to live sand. Based on my aborted substrate ramp-up, do you think that I should add some live sand in order to compensate for any loss that may have occured. Thanks.

Chuck

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NoSump

My only remaining question on this thread concerns the beneficial organisms that came with my live rock. Is it likely that they had burrowed into the old sand within the three week curing process, and consequently are now lost? I did not go the live sand route, because I was of the opinion that if you waited long enough your live rock would lead to live sand.

This is a common misconception. Unless you purchased "raw" live rock that was collected, boxed and shipped strictly "as is" with sediments and all, it is unlikely that you would have very much in the way of true sediment infauna on your live rock. Generally speaking, animals that dwell in the sand bed are not the same animals as those that inhabit live rock. It is true that there is a certain amount of overlap and crossover, if you will, but even if you received some really nice live rock, it is always a good idea to boost your deep sand bed with an infusion of sand bed infauna. The best and cheapest way to do this is to "borrow" a pint of very lively live sand from a couple of hobbyist friends. In addition, you could order some critters from the various online sources advertising "detritivore kits." A lot of the microcrustaceans that inhabit deep sediments are too small to be seen with the naked eye. This is why you want to get some of the "live sand booster" or whatever they happen to call it when you order your detritivore kit.

Based on my aborted substrate ramp-up, do you think that I should add some live sand in order to compensate for any loss that may have occured.

There is no need to replace anything that migrated to the sand bed from your existing live rock because more of the same are sure to follow in short order. Your goal, however, is to get a diversified mix of beneficial critters of all types, which is why it's a good idea to get stuff from more than one source and certainly to get stuff to supplement whatever came in for free on the live rock.

[NoSump]

Ninong:

Thanks again. I guess it is about time that I put somthing more than live rock in my tank. My wife and little girl can't understand why after four weeks (and alot of $), I still have a tank with only rocks in it!

Chuck (Sump Challenged)

[NoSump]

Poseidon:

Astrea Snails: 48
Cerith Snails: 24
Nassarious Vibex: 48
Nerite Snails: 12
Strombus Alatus: 1
Mexian Turbo: 2 or 3

Thanks for the suggestions. It's a bit confussing for someone new to the hobby - particularly when there are such conflicting opinions (on Hermits) from you experienced reefers.

Congratulations on your tank being featured. It's very impressive, and speaks to your knowledge and patience.

[NoSump]

Ninong: Thanks again for your snail/crab advice. Your point about the need to balance the snail population with the available food sources is well taken. I am going to purchase my "critters" from my LFS (despite higher costs) and gradually build up to the full recommended population. One follow-up question though - what is the common name for "Stomatella varia"?

I thought that I could find it in other reference sources, but have been unable to. Scientific/latin terminology is not my forte. In my profession we use some latin terms - and frankly, I hate it!

Thanks again for all your help and advice.

[Ninong]

The common name for Stomatella varia is Stomatella varia.

I kid you not, that's its common name, too. The only place that I know of that sells them is www.inlandaquatics.com but there could be others.