[SKRIZ]

I need some help clarifying Sanjay's data. I am setting up a 35" tall tank and will need 4 to 6 halides? (119" long). Obviously, power consumption is a factor and so is bulb life. From what I can gather, a m80 ballast will run the bulb at a higher par, but will it shorten the life span? Also, does it use a lot more power than an icecap? I am getting more confused even writing this! I have a headache. I think I will just watch my reef screensaver...it's healthier

[SKRIZ]

oh yeah, I was looking at SE bulbs. Unless I can be swayed/confused into the DE!

[Ninong]

If you tell us which lamps (bulbs) you are considering, we can look them up to see if Sanjay has tested them and, if so, with which ballasts.

Are you going with 400w or 250w?

Which brand?

Which Kelvin rating?

With answers to those three questions, we can find the exact power consumption for each of the ballasts tested. However, the power consumption may not be the most important consideration to factor into your decision. Some lamps last much longer than others because their spectrum doesn't degrade/shift as fast as others. Some last longer because their intensity doesn't degrade as fast as others. Lots of different things to consider, including which ones you personally like the "appearance" of.

[Ninong]

OK, so your tank is almost 10-ft long and almost 3-ft tall. How wide is it?

Is it acrylic or glass?

What obstructions do you have (if any) across the top of the tank? Any cross bracing? Describe. I'm just curious to see what would work best over your particular tank.

[SKRIZ]

Okay Ninong, here goes.

It is starphire glass with starphire bracing on top (Mitch is building it). It is 34" wide. Three sides are viewable. I have used the iwasaki 250 before, and have an icecap ballast on hand. I was thinking about going 250 again, but people have been telling me that I should go 400 though. I like the look of the iwasaki just fine. Another spectrum I like is 10K. I am not tied down to any particular brand however. I am open to a setup that would work well for this application. I do like the sound of using bulbs that last longer.

[Ninong]

It sounds like a VERY interesting tank. Is he using laminated Starphire (2x12mm=24mm)?

I know this doesn't affect the exact lamps you choose but EXACTLY how will the top be braced? I assume it will have cross bracing in addition to perimeter bracing. How many cross braces and how wide are these braces? This affects placement of the individual lamps and will have a bearing on the number of lamps. Which has a bearing on any possible combination of Kelvin temperatures.

That size tank is open to a lot of options. The first option is the one that is probably out of the question for various other reasons and that would be three 1000w halides. We can probably forget about that possibility.

Then we are left with either 400w or 250w halides, either double-ended or single-ended. Since the tank will be viewable on three sides, you can probably get by with a single row of halides down the center of the tank lengthwise because you won't have to light the 6" closest to the glass walls as intensely as the rest of the tank because you're going to have to leave clearance there anyway. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions because I'm assuming that the three sides that will be viewable will be the two long side plus one end. If you're talking about the front of the tank plus two ends, that another story altogether.

I can think of so many fantastic possibilities but you'll probably end up making your decision based on a combination of factors that have little to do with what's the most spectacular solution.

Are you building a hood?

[Papa Doug]

Having used many different 400w systems, if I did another large tank, I would use the 250w DE bulbs. I several friends using them on their large aquariums and the light is outstanding. Most run a 10K bulb supplemented with actinic.

One would get decent light and penatration, with less power consumption than 400,s.

Always remember the higher the colour temp is the more wattage or total bulb amount is needed, to compensate for the colour and have the same par values.

Another option, IMO, is the 250W version of the single ended Iwaski. Very good light and longevity. Back in the 90,s, I ran my singel 250w vertical pendant, over several different soft coral tanks. Never found any loss in light, even after two years of running the same bulb. Of course it depends on the colour one wants with a tank.

[SKRIZ]

Ninong, he is using laminated glass. It should be here next week! I can't wait to see this thing.

The three viewable sides are the two long sides and the one short side. I was thinking of a single row of bulbs down the center of the tank.

So now the question is...400w or 250, SE or DE, hqi or e-ballast?

How long do the DE bulbs last?

Papa Doug, I have used the Iwasaki 250 on my old 30g and I loved it. I didn't mind the color at all. Plus, I don't mind supplementing with actinics to help. I do like that you can use that bulb for 2 years...that's awesome

very good point about the intensity of the DE 250! I never thought of that. I feel like we are making progress! I almost feel as though I might not be as confused as I had hoped I would never be

[SKRIZ]

Oh, the hood. Yeah, I have to build a hood. I haven't even really thought about that yet. I would love to build something with some sort of system that I can move the lighting out of the way completely. In fact, I have to with the dimensions of this tank.

I forget how many cross braces there are. I can't seem to find the drawings.

So Ninong, what are these "fantastic possibilities" you speak of?

[Ninong]

I run Ushio/BLV 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps and they are more intense than some 400w mogul base lamps. I have also run AB 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps. I like them both but I think I like the Ushio/BLV lamps a little better.

You can easily run either of those brands 12 months (10-12 hrs/day). I ran my AB's 20 months but I was running them only 7 hrs/day due to heat problems. Then when I changed them, I realized just how much they had shifted. I should have changed them around 15 months.

"Fantastic possibilities" was a reference to the possible blending of Kelvin temperatures that you could do over such a large tank if you wanted to. That may not work if you're trying to hold down expenses. For example, assuming you wanted to go with 250w HQI DE lamps, you could run a total of 12 of them -- two rows, alternating 10,000K and maybe 20,000K. And then put T5 or VHO actinic fluorescents in three rows -- in front and in back of the halides and in between the two rows of halides. OK, that would be if you wanted to go nuts, so to speak. But it would look great!

A minimum solution would be a single row of five or six 250w HQI DE lamps down the center of the tank with some sort of fluorescent actinics in front and in back of the halides. In this case, I think you should use all 10,000K lamps instead of mixing them.

The spread from 250w HQI DE lamps is only about 22"x24". It's not as wide as what you would get with a 400w mogul base lamp in a spider type reflector. That's why I think that two rows would be better.

As you can see, other factors will enter into your final choice. I'm sure you will have a budget in mind and also some sense of what you are willing to pay per month for electricity.

Don't settle on your lighting until AFTER you see exactly where the cross braces are on your tank. You want to avoid placing a lamp above a brace if at all possible. You want your lamps to be over open water.

[charlie]

I can't wait to see this thing!!! Mitch built my 300, and God knows, Mitch has taken alot of heat in the past for various things.
As George says, the possibilities are just about endless, depending on how much you want to spend for lighting. The placement of the cross braces will ultimatly help you decide what and how you are going to use.
You are going to love the Starphire, my front is laminated also, but there isn't any distortion. Good luck and show some pics when you get it!!!

[SKRIZ]

OKAY Ninong! Fantastic is certainly one way to describe your 2 row DE setup! I bet that would look really cool though!

[SKRIZ]

Ninong, what ballasts are you using? What do you reccomend for me?

[Ninong]

I'm using an Aquastarlight Future fixture. It came with whatever ballasts Aqua-Medic uses. They're inside the fixture. They're probably M80 (HQI) ballasts.

What ballasts you choose depends on a lot of things. You should consider which ballasts produce the most PAR with whatever lamps you go with but you may also want to consider electronic ballasts if you're trying to cut down on the amount heat generated.

P.S. -- For DE lamps, you will need either an M80 ballast or an electronic ballast.

[SKRIZ]

I checked Sanjay's site, and from what I can gather, the iwasaki se 250 has double the par than the uisho de 250. If I am reading this right, why would I use the de bulbs? I don't get it!

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by SKRIZ

I checked Sanjay's site, and from what I can gather, the iwasaki se 250 has double the par than the uisho de 250. If I am reading this right, why would I use the de bulbs? I don't get it!

In this case, Sanjay as posted results that are VERY different from the results he previously posted for the same lamps.

According to Sanjay's new light forum on Reefs.org, he gives a measurement of 110 PPFD for the Iwasaki 6500K 250w SE lamp on an IceCap electronic ballast, 131 PPFD on a Magnetek M58 ballast and 189 on a PFO (HQI) M80 ballast. All of these measurements were taken unshielded. Deduct approximately 15% for the effects of a tempered glass shield.

According to Sanjay's new light forum, he gives a measurement of 78 (65) PPFD for the Ushio 10,000K HQI DE lamp run on an IceCap electronic ballast (number in parentheses is shielded), 83 (67) PPFD on a Lamps Now electronic ballast and 103 (84) PPFD on a PFO (HQI) M80 ballast.

That same forum gives a measurement of 127 (104) for the AB-10000 HQI DE lamp run on a Geisemann electronic ballast, 101 (83) PPFD on an IceCap electronic ballast, 103 (84) PPFD on a Lamps Now electronic ballast and 128 (104) PPFD on a PFO HQI (M80) ballast.

In 1999 Sanjay published this article in Aquarium Frontiers that reported 104.5 PPFD for the 250w Iwasaki 6500K SE lamp on a standard magnetic ballast and 128.8 PPFD for the 250w Ushio 10,000K HQI DE lamp on a standard HQI ballast. Both tests were unshielded.

As you can see, there is a considerable difference between ballasts and even between tests that were performed in 1999 vs. more recent tests. All tests were conducted with the lamps placed the same distance from the sensor (18"). In Sanjay's earlier tests, he did not test with a glass UV shield. His more recent tests were performed with and without shields for the DE lamps but most of the SE lamps were tested without a shield. In general, you can deduct about 12-15% from the unshielded number to arrive at the shielded number. DE lamps MUST have a shield. Most lighting experts recommend that ALL metal halide lamps be shielded.

My decision to purchase my Aquastarlight Future fixture with two 250w AB-10000 HQI DE lamps was based on Sanjay's 1999 article that showed strong performance for the 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamp that he tested. I learned by personal communication with Sanjay that the lamp he tested in 1999 was a Ushio brand. That's why I purchased Ushio lamps for my replacements. Now, according to his latest figures, it would seem that the AB lamps are more intense than the Ushio lamps???

Let me say this: I like the Iwasaki 250w 6500K SE lamps very much but I think they look much better with strong VHO (or other) actinic supplementation. I don't particularly care for Iwasaki's 6500K lamps without actinic supplementation.

I like the Ushio/BLV and the AB 10,000K HQI DE lamps equally. Both have a nice clear white coloration. They benefit from some actinic supplementation but even without actinic supplementation they look nice. Both of these manufacturers now insist that their 10,000K lamps are really 13,000K. Giesemann now sells a 13,000K Megachrome HQI DE lamp that they just came out with in the past year. I have no idea who makes it but I'm pretty sure it's not Giesemann.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by SKRIZ

I checked Sanjay's site, and from what I can gather, the iwasaki se 250 has double the par than the uisho de 250. If I am reading this right, why would I use the de bulbs? I don't get it!

In this case, Sanjay as posted results that are VERY different from the results he previously posted for the same lamps.

According to Sanjay's new light forum on Reefs.org, he gives a measurement of 110 PPFD for the Iwasaki 6500K 250w SE lamp on an IceCap electronic ballast, 131 PPFD on a Magnetek M58 ballast and 189 on a PFO (HQI) M80 ballast. All of these measurements were taken unshielded. Deduct approximately 15% for the effects of a tempered glass shield.

According to Sanjay's new light forum, he gives a measurement of 78 (65) PPFD for the Ushio/BLV 10,000K HQI DE lamp run on an IceCap electronic ballast (number in parentheses is shielded), 83 (67) PPFD on a Lamps Now electronic ballast and 103 (84) PPFD on a PFO (HQI) M80 ballast.

That same forum gives a measurement of 127 (104) for the AB-10000 HQI DE lamp run on a Geisemann electronic ballast, 101 (83) PPFD on an IceCap electronic ballast, 103 (84) PPFD on a Lamps Now electronic ballast and 128 (104) PPFD on a PFO HQI (M80) ballast.

In 1999 Sanjay published this article in Aquarium Frontiers that reported 104.5 PPFD for the 250w Iwasaki 6500K SE lamp on a standard magnetic ballast and 128.8 PPFD for the 250w Ushio/BLV 10,000K HQI DE lamp on a standard HQI ballast. Both tests were unshielded.

As you can see, there is a considerable difference between ballasts and even between tests that were performed in 1999 vs. more recent tests. All tests were conducted with the lamps placed the same distance from the sensor (18"). In Sanjay's earlier tests, he did not test with a glass UV shield. His more recent tests were performed with and without shields for the DE lamps but most of the SE lamps were tested without a shield. In general, you can deduct about 12-15% from the unshielded number to arrive at the shielded number. DE lamps MUST have a shield. Most lighting experts recommend that ALL metal halide lamps be shielded.

My decision to purchase my Aquastarlight Future fixture with two 250w AB-10000 HQI DE lamps was based on Sanjay's 1999 article that showed strong performance for the 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamp that he tested. I learned by personal communication with Sanjay that the lamp he tested in 1999 was a Ushio brand. That's why I purchased Ushio lamps for my replacements. Now, according to his latest figures, it would seem that the AB lamps are more intense than the Ushio/BLV lamps???

Let me say this: I like the Iwasaki 250w 6500K SE lamps very much but I think they look much better with strong VHO (or other) actinic supplementation. I don't particularly care for Iwasaki's 6500K lamps without actinic supplementation.

I like the Ushio/BLV and the AB 10,000K HQI DE lamps equally. Both have a nice clear white coloration. They benefit from some actinic supplementation but even without actinic supplementation they look nice. Both of these manufacturers now insist that their 10,000K lamps are really 13,000K. Giesemann now sells a 13,000K Megachrome HQI DE lamp that they just came out with in the past year. I have no idea who makes it but I'm pretty sure it's not Giesemann.

P.S. -- It is quite possible that the HQI (M80) ballast is overdriving the Iwasaki 6500K SE lamp. This may shorten its life. Iwasaki does not recommend this ballast for their lamp. Iwasaki has always been particular about which ballasts they say should be used with their lamps but hobbyists often run them with other ballasts anyway.

[Ninong]

I went back to Sanjay's forum and the numbers bear up what I suspected for the 250w 6500K Iwasaki lamp.

The M80 ballast is obviously overdriving this lamp to achieve the 189 PPFD because the CCT falls to 6266K (from the advertised 6500K) and power consumption is 373 watts. Compare this to 6902 CCT on the Magnetek ballast using 314 watts and 7209 CCT on the IceCap electronic ballast drawing only 254 watts.

What does it mean? It means that this lamp will look more yellow on the M80 ballast than it will look on the IceCap electronic ballast. When you overdrive a lamp, you lower its Kelvin color appearance. Chances are that it will last longer on the IceCap ballast compared to the M80 ballast but that's just speculation on my part.

[Ninong]

Another point I would like to make is this: Chances are the manufacturers have made some changes in their lamps in the last six years. Perhaps that explains why the 250w Iwasaki 6500K SE lamp performed more poorly in 1999 than it did in more recent testing.