LED Lighting question

[Pv1191]

I am currently looking into putting togather an LED lighting system for a 90g mixed reef. The Solaris is out of the question b/c of the price. I found a company in Nor Cal that makes white and blue LED arrays. They have a 48 bulb array that has a 250CW rating. I am discussing with them now to put togather 4 of these arrays on a singe power supply. Then have two of their 16 led blue arrays put on another. The LED's they use are same 5000k (sunlight equivalant) that Solaris uses for their system. The difference is the cool timers and fancy hood. And my system will have twice the lighting. The Solaris 36" hood is rated at an equalivant of 500 watts. My system will be 1000+ watts. All for about 1/4 the price. What do you think?

[charlie]

I'll be perfectly honest with you here, I have never even looked into these.. Looks like I need to do some research in the next couple of days or so. Do you happen to have a pic or 2 of the system you are looking at?

[Pv1191]

The system is not built yet. Right now they sell kits. You put it togather type of thing. I am not much of an eletrical engineer so I'm waiting for an answer to see if they will do it. I really don't see why not. They are closed today so I'm not expecting a reply until tomorrow. But the total power draw will be the eqivalant of one 120 watt standard bulb. I'll keep everyone posted.

[Pv1191]

I almost forgot. Solaris has a 50,000 HR bulb gurantee. The ones I'm looking at have minimum guranteed life span of 100,000 hrs.

[rjs5134]

I haven't looked into LED's and I hear they are expensive, but if the hype is true I would probably be ahead of the game with the LED's. I already spent $700 on the MH light fixture and $500+ on the chiller to control the heat. Could a 3' long fixture be much more than $1200??

[Ninong]

I almost forgot. Solaris has a 50,000 HR bulb gurantee. The ones I'm looking at have minimum guranteed life span of 100,000 hrs.

How do they define "lifespan?"

[Pv1191]

I haven't looked into LED's and I hear they are expensive, but if the hype is true I would probably be ahead of the game with the LED's. I already spent $700 on the MH light fixture and $500+ on the chiller to control the heat. Could a 3' long fixture be much more than $1200??

$1568 + shipping is the cheapest I could find. I'm sure they will come down in the future but I want to get my 90g running as soon as possible.

Lifespan is 100,000 hours. 24 hrs in a day so 24 goes into 100,000 4166 times. 30 goes into 4166 138 times. 138 divided by 12 is 11.5. So 11.5 years.

[charlie]

I was just looking at these on Marine Depot's site. I would sure like to see one in action before I went to invest that much.
If the hype is true tho, that could put a serious hurt on the MH business, I would think.
I would sure like top play around with one tho.

[Pv1191]

Ninong,
I hope you know I'm just kidding. I know people, by nature are resistant to change. So unless its proven most will be skeptics. But, if we don't try we will forever be stuck with the same problems. I can get a 2 x 250 MH (with bulbs) retro fit and throw it in for about $300. I already have a chiller so heat will not be an issue. I do like to try different and sometime unconventional things. The Solaris lights seem to work well. So if I can get a better array, minus the cool computerized timer, and avoid heat and power issues. Why not?

[Ninong]

Lifespan is 100,000 hours. 24 hrs in a day so 24 goes into 100,000 4166 times. 30 goes into 4166 138 times. 138 divided by 12 is 11.5. So 11.5 years.

What are you talking about???

This is what you posted: "I almost forgot. Solaris has a 50,000 HR bulb gurantee. The ones I'm looking at have minimum guranteed life span of 100,000 hrs."

My question is not how you define lifespan, it's about how they define lifespan. You seem to be quoting one product as having a 50,000 hr lifespan and another product as having a 100,000 hr lifespan. I'm just curious if you are comparing apples and apples or apples and oranges.

In other words, do they both define lifespan as a 30% reduction in intensity, or do they define it differently?

This is not the same thing as buying a 75w incandescent light bulb and then waiting for it to burn out before replacing it.

[Ninong]

Ninong,
I hope you know I'm just kidding. I know people, by nature are resistant to change. So unless its proven most will be skeptics.

Who are you talking about?

I think the LEDs are great. Their only problem is that they are not intense enough. Producing 89% the intensity of a 250w 20,000K metal halide just doesn't cut it for anything other than shallow tanks or tanks without SPS and clams. When they can equal the intensity of a good quality 250w 10,000K metal halide lamp, they will be a viable option for modest size tanks and once they can match the intensity of the best 400w 10,000K metal halides, they will be good to go.

[Ninong]

PFO's Solaris uses Phillips emitters. Philips maintains their white and blue emitters have an expected life of 50,000 hours. The lamps are reportedly at 70% of original output at that point. If the daily photoperiod is 12 hours, then a 30% reduction in intensity could be expected in about 11 years. (11.4 years to be exact.)

According to Dana Riddle's tests, the 75-watt Solaris produced 89.4% of the PAR generated by the 250-watt XM 20,000K lamp. The 75w Solaris has 25 3-watt LED lamps (13 blue and 12 white) with an advertised Kelvin rating of 20,000.

Not many people operate SPS dominated tanks with 250w 20,000K lamps unless the tank is shallow -- 22"H or less. Most people choose either 250w 10,000K or 400w 10,000K or 400w 20,000K for tanks that are 24"H or taller. So the PFO Solaris fixtures would be fine for smallish tanks but not so good for larger tanks.

[Pv1191]

Well Ninong
In general LEDs have very little loss of intensity over their lifespan. That is why they are so desireable in many other applications. I was looking into this before Solaris came out with their hoods. I have been doing FW for years and have questioned this in the past and never got a straight answer. Now that I'm looking alot closer I want to try it. The solaris hoods are loaded other eletronic gear and that is the reason for the fans. LED's by themselves create almost no heat. My main concern is corrosion. Am I going to need to seal these? Will the exposed boards rot away? If I mount them in my hood I will have about 8" to the top of the tank. Will that be enough?

[Ninong]

I guess my question is this, "What makes you think that the LEDs you are considering have exactly double the lifespan of the Phillips LEDs that PFO uses in the Polaris?"

I have a feeling that what we are talking about here is a difference in advertising claims. I doubt seriously that there is much difference in their lifespans. Phillips defines usable life as a 30% reduction in intensity and it takes 11.4 years at 12 hrs/day to get to that point. If these other LEDs are using the same standard, then that means that at 12 hrs/day, it would take them 22.8 years to fall by 30% -- that doesn't sound likely to me.

With metal halide lamps, some lamps reach a 30% reduction in intensity in a matter of five or six months and others may take 12-15 months to degrade that much. Some hobbyists choose to replace metal halides after they have lost about 25% of their intensity and others wait until they have dropped by 40%.

The Polaris fixture has a lot going for it but it doesn't appear to provide the same sort of illumination that you would get with a good quality 250w 10,000K metal halide lamp and certainly not what you would expect from a good 400w 10,000K metal halide lamp. The light directly under the emitters is fine but it falls off dramatically as you move away. With good reflectors, you can stretch the coverage of a good metal halide lamp to as much as 28-30" but with LEDs, you have to keep in mind that there is a big dropoff in intensity as you move out from under the LEDs.

I think the LED fixtures are very nice provided the tank is not too tall and provided you have enough LEDs to adequately cover the surface area of the tank. At this point, I don't think they're a viable option for larger tanks because the initial cost would be prohibitive.

[Pv1191]

I guess my question is this, "What makes you think that the LEDs you are considering have exactly double the lifespan of the Phillips LEDs that PFO uses in the Polaris?"

I have a feeling that what we are talking about here is a difference in advertising claims. I doubt seriously that there is much difference in their lifespans. Phillips defines usable life as a 30% reduction in intensity and it takes 11.4 years at 12 hrs/day to get to that point. If these other LEDs are using the same standard, then that means that at 12 hrs/day, it would take them 22.8 years to fall by 30% -- that doesn't sound likely to me.

With metal halide lamps, some lamps reach a 30% reduction in intensity in a matter of five or six months and others may take 12-15 months to degrade that much. Some hobbyists choose to replace metal halides after they have lost about 25% of their intensity and others wait until they have dropped by 40%.

The Polaris fixture has a lot going for it but it doesn't appear to provide the same sort of illumination that you would get with a good quality 250w 10,000K metal halide lamp and certainly not what you would expect from a good 400w 10,000K metal halide lamp. The light directly under the emitters is fine but it falls off dramatically as you move away. With good reflectors, you can stretch the coverage of a good metal halide lamp to as much as 28-30" but with LEDs, you have to keep in mind that there is a big dropoff in intensity as you move out from under the LEDs.

I think the LED fixtures are very nice provided the tank is not too tall and provided you have enough LEDs to adequately cover the surface area of the tank. At this point, I don't think they're a viable option for larger tanks because the initial cost would be prohibitive.

I was using a 24hr day for those calculations. So you are right there. What I am going to try is 4 48 bulb white arrays. They are 18" long and about 2 1/2 " wide each. Led light is more directional, not like typical MH or PC where good reflectors are a must. I am going to mount them to reflectors and see how they do. I do understand some of the physics involved with lighting. That being said I still have some concerns about penetration to the lower levels of the tank. my 90g being 24" deep. I keep a fairly shallow sand bed, about 1" to 1 1/2". My current livestock is Softies and LPS that are in a 50g that is 18" deep. I am running a hood with 2 96 watt PC white and one 96 watt Atinic. I would like some SPS but right now I'm not ready with my current setup. The 90g I'm building will be. Does that mean I'm going to throw these lights in and buy all kinds of SPS and hope they live? NO. I want to try them and see how it works. It may not. But, with the amount of lighting I will have then I think there is a pretty good chance it will. I'm not looking to re-invent the wheel. Just explore other options. I got the idea from a hydroponics store. They use MH, T5, and PC lighting as well. There is a store locally who has been trying several different LED arrays with success. This experiment has not been going on long so the jury is still out but it appears to be working. Before you comment, NO I don't grow or smoke weed. I went in to see if they had any lighting equipment that might be suitable for my application. The owner showed me the LED's and he was the one who told me about the Solaris lights. The test you quoted is for the single array with 13 blue and 12 white bulbs ( 3 watts ea ). The array I'm going to use has 16 boards swith three LED's each with a power draw of 1.84 watts for each board. The advertised kelvin rating per array is 5000k. With an equalivant wattage rating of 250w. That is the reason for the longer life span. The Philips are pumping ALOT more wattage through each bulb. Now all not being equal that is why I want to try 4 of these arrays with two smaller blue arrays. Even if I do have 10 to 20% less light per array then it should be compensated by the numbers I'm going to use. ANd the cost is not prohibitive. About $50 per array if I put them together myself. The blue arrays come pre assembled and run about $20. So where else could you get the equivalant of 800 watts of light for about $220 and not have to worry about the heat and power issues?. Even if the penetration is not as good as MH who says SPS has to be on the bottom of the tank.

[Ninong]

LEDs have been around for several years as an option for reef aquarium lighting but previous attempts ran into problems with salt corrosion of the electronics and overheating of the emitters. PFO seems to have solved those problems with their new fixtures.

[gimmito]

Pv1191, Just started checking out this site... How's your led project coming along? Are you located in the bay area ? I'm interested in checking out that hydroponics store you talked about. I read Dana Riddle's review on the solaris system, but I was discouraged to hear sanjay joshi's comments at macna regarding led's (basically he compared the outputs to pc's).

[dougc]

A local store has one of the Solaris fixtures over a very shallow ZeroEdge tank. To me, it looks very dim and WAY too blue for my taste. I think that usable LED lighting is still a work in progress.