T5's...what am I doing wrong?! :-( Help!

[SouthBayPhoto]

Hey folks,

If any of you have viewed my 90g build up thread in the Reef Aquariums forum, then you might know what's going on. For those of you who don't....

I put in a four bulb T5 IceCap retrofit kit (IC660 ballast and four T5 bulbs) into my canopy of the 90g I'm building.

Put it all in and couldn't get the T5's to fire up. Tried plugging it in and out of the socket a bunch of times and finally got it to fire up. The rear bulb, an ATI True Actinic 03 bulb, "filled up" slowly. All the rest turned on to their proper color right away (or so it seemed), but the ATI bulb was dark/gray in the middle and after a minute or so, finally "filled in" and turned purplish.

Well, if I let them run a minute or two and then unplugged the set and plugged them back in, they went back on just fine. If I let them totally cool down a couple of hours and tried it again, they won't fire up. The one end of the lights light up for about 2 seconds and then shut off. When the lights finally came on (had to plug and unplug them like 10 times), I then played with the wiring to see if I had a loose wire. NOpe, no flicker and the lights never turned off.

I also made sure the lights were pushed in correctly with the two prongs being parallel to the canopy top. To me, this should mean they are installed correctly, right? I even switched them around and turned them different ways and such.

Well, I finally moved the ATI bulb from the rear set of endcaps to the second from the front set. Finally, after several tries, got the lights to fire and it filled up slowly again. I figured it was the bulb. Called Debbie @ DIYReef.com and she sent me out a new ATI bulb.

I put it in tonight...same crap happens!!!!!! I don't know what the hell I'm doing wrong. I had to play around with the lights and move them around and I didn't even install the covers to the endcaps, just to make sure the bulbs weren't turning. It took me about 10 to 15 tries again before they would fire and stay on. Each time I plug the damn socket in, the one end of the lights would partially light up (maybe 1/4 of the way down the tube) and then shut off.

So, I don't know what the hell to do. I don't know if this means it's the IC660 ballast or what. Below I included a couple of shots of the endcaps. Mind you I pushed each bulb down into the endcap so that the base is touching the other side and then took a pic of this endcap to show the "play" that I have. Normally there is just a little slot of light between each endcap of each bulb.

I also then pushed them in harder thinking that maybe they click into place and I just didn't realize it or something and it actually popped the top of the black connector out of the top of the endcap. Admittedly it held the bulb in firmer, but I'm guessing that is NOT supposed to happen. Plus, for craps and giggles, I did that to all the endcaps and plugged then lights in...nothin'. So, it didn't help.

Please help me because I'm getting to the point of being irritated and ready to say forget the entire setup. I didn't think these T5's would be this touchy. Only other thing I can think of doing is ripping the entire setup out of the damn canopy and setting it on a table and wiring it up again and then seeing if the setup will fire that way. If it does, then I'm guessing my wiring is screwed or messed up.

Sorry for the super long post, but I just wanted to explain what I've done thus far. Please help...I'm losing my mind and in a minute the entire canopy is going to be sitting in the street waiting for a Mack truck to run it over!

With the other end pushed all the way against the black connector, here is the "play" in the tube.


Different angle

[charlie]

Hey Mat, I would take 5 minutes worth of deep breaths, rewire it, again, just in case, and try it again. As you know, I am not real familiar with this type of setup, maybe Mike will see this and chip in.
Is it possible that you have a bad connection, from the factory on the black part of the endcaps???????
If all else fails, call Debbie. I am sorry I can't be any more help, I have wired a couple of DIY, VHO hoods, but that's about it. Have you switched the plugs around on the ballast to see if maybe you have a bad port on the ballast?
Do not, and I repeat, do not toss the idea, you have a good setup, and believe me, I know frustration.

[Poseidon]

Breathe!

Okay, check the wire entering the endcaps. Remove the endcaps from the canopy, set it all up on the table, and give each wire a little tug. Those endcaps have a really tight hold if the wire is properly seated, those leads should not have ANY play when trying to pull them back. If all the wires are properly seated, then double check that you have the colors right. (I know I know, but do it anyway.) Once you have done that, replace all the bulbs and make sure each bulb has no gap between it and the endcap. While it is on the table, fire it up. What happened?

If you still get the slow fill bulb, check the harness where it plugs into the ballast, maybe a pin is loose there. Use a pick (very small awl) to press each colr wire gently inward, maybe one of the leads popped loose. (Make sure the ballast is unplugged when you do this.)

If you are still having issues, what color leads are causing the problem? Is it ALWAYS those leads, or does the problem move with that bulb?

Last case that I would try is to wire ballast for 2 and 3 bulbs to see if you have the same issue, document what happens in each case, with all bulbs. If the problem only happens when you are using that ATI bulb I would say that you got another bad one, maybe Debbie got a bad batch....

I'll point Debbie in this direction as well, I consider her a friend of mine, I am ABSOLUTELY SURE that you will get a positive resolution from her.

Oh ya, BREATHE AGAIN!!!

[DlBerlin]

Hi Mat
Sorry to see you are still having problems.
I'll try to help.

The one end of the lights light up for about 2 seconds and then shut off.

All of the bulbs did this? I thought it was just the one bulb that was doing this?

I also then pushed them in harder thinking that maybe they click into place and I just didn't realize it or something and it actually popped the top of the black connector out of the top of the endcap.

Nope thats not supposed to happen, in fact I cannot get the black plastic piece out of the endcap I am playing with right now. Is this the black plastic part with the copper connectors inside that is inside of the endcap? If so that could be your problem. Can you get me a pic looking at this with no bulb installed?

With the other end pushed all the way against the black connector, here is the "play" in the tube.

You should have the endcaps mounted so that there is no play in the tubes.

If you call IceCap at
Phone: (800) 7-ICECAP or (609) 588-5338
They will walk you through some trouble shooting procedures, and be able to tell you if its a ballast issue. Sounds like it's either a ballast or wiring/endcap issue
Debbie

[SouthBayPhoto]

Okay...first thing I want to say is I'm definitely not upset at Debbie or her company what so ever. Sometimes things on email/posts can be misconstrued (not that anyone has done that) and I don't want someone new to read this and think something bad about DIYReef.com. If I did get a bad ballast, it would be the same as buying something from Wal-Mart. It's not their fault if something I purchased there is bad (unless they specifically made it). Okay...now that that is done...on to what I've done this mornin'. Debbie and her company definitely gets a thumbs up

Okay, here is what I've done PRIOR to reading the thread this afternoon.

First off, I unplugged the ballast and took the canopy off the tank. Then I took a multimeter and set it to Ohms and tested every wire through the end caps themselves to make sure that no wires were broken or any broken contact through to the plug that goes into the ballast. Everything tested fine. I wiggled wires, bent them, etc... I would put one probe into the end cap on the appropriate wire's side and then into the corresponding pin in the connector. I also tested the "other" wire of the same color to make sure nothing was cross wired. Again, everything is fine. I triple checked again to make sure I wired it correctly using the IC660 wiring diagram for four bulbs; the same one that is printed on the ballast itself. It looks the same.

I also wasn't sure if maybe using the "screw on" connectors for the black, white and green wires was a good idea, so I took those apart and soldered them together (was going to do that initially, but got too excited to see it up and running. ). Tested them once again to make sure I had good connection, everything was good.

Only thing I noticed upon testing the wiring was that one of the end caps (the rear one that I had trouble with the ATI bulb in) seemed that the metal connector in the end cap seemed a little loose/wide. Fortunately the probe of my multimeter is the same size as the T5 bulb pins. That's how I noticed it. So, I carefully took a very small screwdriver and pried each of the connectors closer to the middle, so that they will hold the pins of the bulbs themselves better.

I was hoping that would fix my issue. I put the bulbs back in (same configuration as before), plugged the wiring into the ballast...then plugged it into the wall. Nothin'. Same situation happens. The end of the bulbs closest to the ballast side light up about a third of the way down the tube and then shut off. They only flicker on for about 2 seconds or so...I'm estimating here. I even checked the fuse in the ballast itself, just in case and it looks fine. No marks, smoke, burns, etc...

I do hear a "pop" when I plug it into the wall or the timer socket or the extension cord (I've tried just about everywhere in the house. LOL). Well, I looked at the plug today and found this....




I'm guessing that this has been going on from day one, but I never really looked at the plug itself. I did today because I was testing it with the probe of the multimeter.

I don't know what else it could be. I'm guessing the ballast. I could now take everything off the canopy and set it up on the table, but I don't see where it would necessarily be any different since I tested each individual wire, along with the end caps. The only thing I don't know how to test is the ballast itself and I'm not even gonna try that unless I get specific instruction from the company itself.

Debbie - The one ATI bulb did fill up slowly each time (after it was cool), when I finally got the lights to come on. However, before I get the lights to actually come on, they only fill up about a third of the way down the tube and then shut off. I figured that was happening because of the ATI tube being bad. It still did it since I moved it from the rear set of end caps to a middle set. That's why I figured the bulb was bad and causing the entire system not to function properly.

I finally got it to fire last night and the new bulb filled up slowly again. However, this was prior to me seeing that the end cap clip could have been a little loose. However, since fixing that (as stated above), now I can't get the system to fire up at all. I have to plug it in and out of the wall/extension cord probably 10 to 15 times to get it to fire up.

The T5's definitely fit snuggly into the end caps now that I carefully pushed the tabs out that hold the pins. But it doesn't seem to have helped.

Again, I'm guessing my only other course of action right now would be to remove everything off of the canopy, as Mike stated, and set it up on the table. I can try that and make sure the end caps are pushed on as far as they can be onto the tubes. There is about a 1/16" to 1/8" of an inch cap between the black plastic inside the end caps and the actual metal cap (not the pins) on the tubes themselves.

This happened even though I did all my measuring and marking with the tubes in the end caps and pushed all the way on. However, I figured that since the pins are still touching the clips they set into, that it should be fine or am I wrong about that? I guess I'll find that out when I pull everything out of the canopy and make sure they are pushed into each other all the way. I'll die if it's that. That's the only thing I didn't really test for, but I admit it would truly surprise me if that is the situation because I know there is even play in my NO lights, but they work fine. (just an observation...I know they are different)

Okay...so, I'm guessing I should now unscrew everything out of the canopy, make sure the tubes are pushed in as far as they can be (not forcefully, of course) into the end caps, pull the ballast off the wall and then try and plug everything in?

I'm really sorry to be a pain to you all with this. I truly appreciate the help!

[SouthBayPhoto]

Originally Posted by SouthBayPhoto
The one end of the lights light up for about 2 seconds and then shut off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of the bulbs did this? I thought it was just the one bulb that was doing this?

See my response in the previous post to this. It always lit up just the one side of the bulbs, but when the system did finally kick on, all the bulbs were on bright except for the ATI bulb. Then I moved it to a different set of end caps and again it was the only one (once I got the system to fire up) that filled up slowly. That's why I figured it was the ATI bulb itself causing the entire system to have trouble starting.

Originally Posted by SouthBayPhoto
I also then pushed them in harder thinking that maybe they click into place and I just didn't realize it or something and it actually popped the top of the black connector out of the top of the endcap.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nope thats not supposed to happen, in fact I cannot get the black plastic piece out of the endcap I am playing with right now. Is this the black plastic part with the copper connectors inside that is inside of the endcap? If so that could be your problem. Can you get me a pic looking at this with no bulb installed?

How I noticed that happening is if you push the bulb all the way down into the socket (I figured maybe I wasn't pushing it down deep enough to "click" in or something), then because the black sockets are "springy" (don't know another word for it. LOL), it would pop the top of the black socket out of the white end cap. Not by much though. It's not like it came all the way out or anything...maybe it moved about 1/8" or so??? Something like that. Just a little bit. If you look at it closely, you can see where the white end cap has a little plastic "hook" that the black plastic piece fits over. They would just become "unhooked" if you pushed the tube too far in. All you have to do is press the top of the black piece back into the white end cap and it'll "rehook" itself and be perfectly fine.

Originally Posted by SouthBayPhoto
With the other end pushed all the way against the black connector, here is the "play" in the tube.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You should have the endcaps mounted so that there is no play in the tubes.

I'll have to try this. This is the only part of the process that I haven't tried testing yet. I'm off to do this now. However, I don't know if this would cause the "burned/blackened" wall plug though. Then again, what do I know? LOL It might.

If you call IceCap at
Phone: (800) 7-ICECAP or (609) 588-5338
They will walk you through some trouble shooting procedures, and be able to tell you if its a ballast issue. Sounds like it's either a ballast or wiring/endcap issue
Debbie

I'll give them a call on Monday (I'm sure they are gone on weekends) if I try putting no play in the tubes and end caps and that doesn't resolve the issue.

Thanks for the help!

[SouthBayPhoto]

Okay...you all aren't allowed to beat me with a wet noodle until I've got this fixed, okay?

Alrighty....I took Mike & Debbie's advice. I unscrewed one side of the end caps and remounted the bulbs and pushed everything together so there were no "gaps" between the bulbs and black plastic in the end caps. Tried it...didn't work. Checked the bulbs again and rotated them a bit to make sure they were in there just fine and tried it again and the system did fire up. Oh, I also checked the wiring at this time and the wires were fully seated into the end caps. Couldn't pull them out or move them and if you looked into the end caps, you could see the wires being held in there properly.

So, I left the system on and remounted the end caps, but mounted them closer to the other side's end caps to eliminate the "spacing" between the end of the tubes and the end caps. I left the system running the entire time.

Here are a few pics of them now. However, I'm not convinced, as of yet, that it fixed everything. I'll have to wait a few hours to retest because they always went on when the system was "warmed up" so to speak. It's when they are sitting for hours and are cold that I have issues with the firing up of the system.

I also managed to get some quick shots of the ATI bulb "filling up". Yes, it still did it even though I moved the end caps. Maybe I'm just friggin' nuts. :slap: Who knows. But it'll be the bottom bulb in the sequence that I'll present here.

All tubes moved flush against the black plastic holders in end caps


Tube setting against the black plastic...hope this is what you all meant.


Another angle, same tube:


I moved the far stands up by about 1/8" to 3/16". More than I thought. If you look closely, you can see my original marks for the end caps.


Okay, here is the progression of the ATI True Actinic 03 tube "filling up" when it's first turned on (cold). It's the bottom light in all the pics. Note the long dark spot. The ends light up bright, but it takes a bit for the middle of the tube to "fill in" with bright light. Maybe this is normal and I'm just friggin' nuts. I know these pics don't do it justice, but I'm trying.


Pic 2...starting to fill up the middle of the tube


Pic 3...fills in sections of the tube. This is probably over a minute or two's time.


Pic 4...almost completely filled...one little spot to go.


So what do you all think? Am I nuts? Is this normal? It still "filled the tube" even though the end caps were pushed all the way on. No gaps.

Like I said, I'll probably try again around 8 pm (my time) tonight because I turned them off at 4. They should be totally cold by that time. Then we'll see if it fires up with no issues. Gosh I hope so.

Then you all will have peace from my threads. :slap::slap:

[SouthBayPhoto]

Ok...just tried it out.

Took me 16 times of plugging it in and it flashing partially on for 1 second (counted this time) before it finally kicked on and stayed on.

There is something wickedly wrong with this system.

Going to try and call IceCap tomorrow mornin', but I'm sure I'll have to wait until Monday morning.

I give up....for now

[charlie]

Mat, I think you have done just about everything you can here. I agree that calling Ice Cap is the option now. If you explain to them, what you have done here, I think they will be more than happy to assist you. Good luck, I will be talking to you this week.

[Poseidon]

Heck Mat, point them to this thread.... I have had great results with Ice Cap service myself, very fast turn around.

[SouthBayPhoto]

I was going to email them from their site last night, but decided it's probably easier and better if I just call them on Monday. I found out they open up at 8 am EST, so that means I can call around 6 am PST and get a hold of them tomorrow.

So, I'm just going to give them a call tomorrow and explain what's up and what I've done. I just hope it is a bad ballast and they replace it and then it's a done deal.

If it ends up being the ballast and not the ATI bulb, then I'll talk with Debbie about sending that one back because it wasn't the issue.

Thanks for putting up with all my crap on this subject all. I truly appreciate it!

[SouthBayPhoto]

Well, I called IceCap today and they were pretty darn helpful. Listened to what was going on with my setup and said it was probably the ballast. I'm sending it in today and they are going to take a look at it. So, they definitely get a thumbs up for customer service for now.

Now I just have to wait for them to do the service and send it back. Not sure how long that'll take, but first thing's first...sending it back.

When I find out what the deal is/was...I'll post up the findings. Incidentally there was someone local to me here that bought the same setup from DIYReef about two weeks before mine (I think that's what he said) and installed it yesterday without a hitch. So there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[The Grim Reefer]

Just looking at the first pictures it appears you have a gap between the metal endcaps of the lamps and the plastic endcaps they mount in. A bad thing. If anything you want a slight interference fit to insure the pins are making good contact with the the contacts in the endcaps. That can cause the exact symptoms you have. The Ice Cap ballast with automatically shut down with any arcing. Even if the ballast is bad I would adjust the endcaps a little.

[SouthBayPhoto]

Grim,

I appreciate the info. Unfortunately I was a pinhead and forgot to update this thread and only updated my 90g build thread. WHOOOPSSS!

I did move the end caps there there were no gaps at all between them and that did not fix the problem. I even adjusted the metal clips in the end caps to hold the T5 bulb pins more securely as well...to no avail.

I then called IceCap about sending in the ballast, in which I did. Found out there was something wrong internally with it and they fixed it and sent it back. With no other changes to my setup other than re-plugging the ballast back in, everything works perfectly. I even tested it out on a timer to make sure it would go on with no issues and it does.

So, everything is good to go.

[The Grim Reefer]

Cool. I blew out my first 660 because of not having the lamp seated right. If you plug and unplug the ballast fast enough it can kill something in the ballast.