Have you seen this

stang69 · 01-12-2002, 12:49 PM

I was looking for a little help on picking out MH bulbs for my dual 250 and ran across this what do you think? What would be my best choice i am wanting in the long run to keep sps. Set up will be 110 gallon with a 40 gallon sump, Geo skimmer dual 250 watt MH 2 mag 1200's 1 for skimmer and one for return, 300 lbs of arg sand 150 lbs of figi LR. Im prolly forgetting something but not sure what I havent had my rda of coffee yet but anyways whay would your choice be?

http://www.reefs.org/ubb/ultimatebb....&f=27&t=000121

TIA
Jeff

**Ninong** · 01-12-2002, 01:15 PM

Hi Jeff,

I believe I saw that last week so I don't have to review it to tell you what I would choose in your situation.

Remember that you will be faced with several compromises in choosing any lighting system. These are the limiting factors that you must weigh before choosing your dream lighting:

How much money do you want to spend initially and in the cost of electricity and lamp replacement forever after?
How much heat are you willing to throw into your tank? Are you planning on getting by without a chiller? If so, you might want to avoid 400 watt lamps of any kind.
What pleases you personally? What color would you like your tank to be and can you achieve that economically without breaking the budget or adding too much heat?
And last, but not least, remember that not all 250w lamps are created equal.

My first choice for the best bang for the buck would be 2*250w 6500K Iwasakis with 2*110w URI VHO Super Actinics.

My next choice would be 2*250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps with actinic supplementation of your choosing.

My third choice would be a combination of 2*250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps with either a single Radium 250w 20,000K mogul base lamp in the middle, or possibly 2*150w 20,000K HQI DE lamps with a single 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamp in the middle... plus actinic supplementation if you feel like it. I have not seen any test results yet on the 150w 20,000K HQI DE lamps but I wonder if they are anywhere near as nice as the 150w 10,000K HQI DE lamps?

Those recommendations are kinda in ascending order of cost. If you wanted to go ballistic on costs, you could consider 400w sizes of the 20,000K or 6500K or 10,000K and guarantee that you would need a chiller.

Ninong

stang69 · 01-12-2002, 01:51 PM

I would like the best quality light possible for the sps corals based on the 250 watt choices. In this I mean would the Iwasaki's be the best suppl;imented with the 96 watt atenics? Reason being I have the 96 watters already and that would save money. Or do I go with the Oshio's and no supplimentation?

Jeff

**Ninong** · 01-12-2002, 02:26 PM

OK, that's an easy question to answer. Remember that light intensity is the most important factor in coral health and growth. This is not to say that you should add up the total wattage. That means next to nothing because some lamps are very wimpy compared to others of the same wattage.

So, let's assume that you have eliminated 400-watt anything from consideration... and let's further assume that you will use your present 96w PC actinics (they are PCs, right? because if they were 36" VHOs they would be 95w) for dawn/dusk effects and for actinic supplementation. I would use them with either the 6500K Iwasakis or the 10,000K HQI DE lamps.

So now we are down to a choice of either 2*250w 6500K Iwasaki mogul base lamps or 2*250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps. They are about equal in total PAR but the 10,000K HQI DE lamps will give your tank a more bluish-white appearance than the 6500K Iwasakis. The Iwasakis cost $59 each to replace and the 10,000K HQI DE lamps cost $85 each to replace. You could run the Iwasakis about 18 months and the 10,000K HQI DE lamps about 14 months.

Shallow water SPS are more adapted to the 6500K color and anything just a little deeper would be more adapted to 10,000K color. Either lamp will work well with SPS but you will notice differences in coloration of your corals because their symbiotic zooxanthellae will be adapting to a different spectral mix. Color is not necessarily an indication of health, per se.

This is where you make your decision based on what you think you will like best as far as the appearance of your tank and the appearance of the corals in your tank. It's a close call but I would choose the 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps (in fact, I already have). But... the HQI DE lamps are more difficult to DIY, if that's what you had in mind. Mine are in an Aquastarlight fixture and I have a separate fixture with 2*55w German 03 actinic PCs for dawn/dusk and actinic supplementation.

Ninong

Ironreef · 01-12-2002, 05:47 PM

whatever you use use the pc also. use more lighitng imo

stang69 · 01-13-2002, 01:44 AM

Sigh

Ironreef · 01-13-2002, 04:31 AM

put it this whay I dunno about pc but vho i can get 1 iwaski and 2 actinic vho for the price of ushio 10k. = the 250w + the 220w of vho =more lighing which is better. If you use the ushio I would use the pc also.The only way I wouldn't use the pc is if I was tryng to say power.

**Ninong** · 01-13-2002, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stang69
Sigh

OK, let's start all over. Here's a little quiz for ya:

What are the dimensions of your 110-gal tank? I assume it's 48" long, right? But what about the front-to-back dimension?
Do you already have a canopy? If so, how much room do you have in there for lighting? Especially, how much room between the water and the inside top of the canopy?
If you don't already have a canopy, do you want to build your own canopy and install DIY lighting or would you rather just buy a ready-made all-in-one fixture that would be suspended above the tank?
Please confirm exactly what it is that you already have: Is it two 96w PCs that are mounted inside an existing canopy? Or just a dual 96w PC fixture that sits on top of your tank?

Forget about all the exotic possibilities and narrow it down to two choices:

2*250w 6500K Iwasaki MH lamps plus 2*110w URI VHO Super Actinics, using Spiderlite reflectors for the Iwasakis in a DIY canopy with a 4" fan at each end. You would need enough room for the large reflectors. If you don't have that much room, go with the smaller knockoffs that are only 12" instead of 16" like the Spiders. But you still need enough space to have your metal halide lamps at least 8" above the water.
Buy a ready-made AB-Aqualine Aquaspacelight fixture with 2*250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps plus 2*24w Osram PC actinics, which are on a separate power cord for dawn/dusk possibilities. You would need to suspend this fixture 10" above the tank.

It's only $799.99 here: http://www.customaquatic.com/customaquatic/index.asp# Item #AB75368

Ninong

P.S. -- If you want a nice ready-made fixture for the Iwasaki/VHO combo, consider one of the PFO/IceCap fixtures from Marine Depot or Premium Aquatics:

This fixture will cost a little more than the Aquaspacelight by the time you add up all the charges.

stang69 · 01-13-2002, 10:19 AM

Tank is 60x18x24 deep. I have a stand and canopy (12 inchs tall canopy and 36 inchc tall stand BYW) being built for it and the dual 96's are a retro kit. The dual 250 mh is coming and it is a PFO.

Jeff

**Ninong** · 01-13-2002, 10:31 AM

How is the tank braced across the top? Is there one glass brace across the middle? Or what?

Ninong

P.S. -- Obviously we can forget about the suspended fixtures and we can forget about HQI DE lamps since you have already ordered the PFO dual 250w ballast (unless it's the PFO HQI ballast, which I'm sure it's not).

stang69 · 01-13-2002, 10:38 AM

It is a truvue acrilic tankwith the normal openings for acrylic tanks. and no it isnt the hqi pfo

**Ninong** · 01-13-2002, 10:39 AM

OK, does Tru-Vu have two top openings on their 60" long tank or three?

stang69 · 01-13-2002, 10:41 AM

two thus the dual mh. not to sound like a smartbutt but thats why I bought a dual I figured one socket per hole

**Ninong** · 01-13-2002, 10:48 AM

Yes, that makes perfect sense to me, too. It's just that I obviously didn't understand what your setup was until just now.

If I were you, I would sell the PC retro kit as it will be difficult to work into your canopy. How about going with 2*250w 6500K Iwasaki lamps plus 2*140w URI VHO Super Actinics (or 2*110w URI VHO Super Actinics if the 60" size won't fit)??? You would have to use the 12" size reflectors but you should still have adequate coverage. If you ever wanted to throw more money into the setup, you could add a Radium 250w 20,000K HQI mogul base lamp in the middle provided it didn't heat up your acrylic center brace too much.

Ninong

stang69 · 01-13-2002, 10:53 AM

Why do you think the 96's wont fit in the canopy? they are only 36 ;ong I was going to mount one in front and one in the rear of the MH's. Does the VHO give off that much more Atenic lighting? I will have the 03 bulbs in both 96w sockets

**Ninong** · 01-13-2002, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stang69
Why do you think the 96's wont fit in the canopy? they are only 36 ;ong I was going to mount one in front and one in the rear of the MH's. Does the VHO give off that much more Atenic lighting? I will have the 03 bulbs in both 96w sockets

Because I was assuming that you would want to cover the entire length of the 60" tank, which would mean mounting the two 96w PCs together (offset) rather than one in the front and one in the rear. You can certainly do what you propose but the lighting would not be as evenly distributed across the entire tank as it would be if you were using two 60" (or even 48") VHO actinics.

There are a lot of different opinions about which actinic supplementation is better, VHO or PC. I believe most people who use Iwasaki metal halides use VHO actinics for supplementation. But... you could certainly go either way.

There is always the possibility of using 250w 10,000K MH lamps instead of the 250w 6500K Iwaski MH lamps, but the Iwasakis have more PAR than the 10,000K mogul base lamps (it's just the 10,000K HQI DE lamps that are equal in PAR to the 250w Iwasakis).

Ninong

stang69 · 01-13-2002, 11:03 AM

If I were to mount the 96's how wold you do it front and back or both fromt both back?

jeff

**Ninong** · 01-13-2002, 11:06 AM

I believe that I would mount them as you originally proposed: one in the front and one in the back.

Ninong

P.S. -- Or, both in the back to give the rear of the tank an appearance of "depth," or both in the front to have maximum impact on the coloration of the 6500K Iwasakis.

stang69 · 01-13-2002, 11:08 AM

Ok i guess theIwasakis win so I wil order them later today then any suggestions where I have found that hellolights.com is about the cheapest any other suggestions?

jeff

**Ninong** · 01-13-2002, 11:10 AM

I don't have any experience with HelloLights, but Ltspd (Paul Christopher) seems to like them.

Ninong

P.S. -- I added a P.S. to my previous reply to complicate matters.

01-12-2002, 12:49 PM	#1
stang69 Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA; 98310 Posts: 952	Have you seen this I was looking for a little help on picking out MH bulbs for my dual 250 and ran across this what do you think? What would be my best choice i am wanting in the long run to keep sps. Set up will be 110 gallon with a 40 gallon sump, Geo skimmer dual 250 watt MH 2 mag 1200's 1 for skimmer and one for return, 300 lbs of arg sand 150 lbs of figi LR. Im prolly forgetting something but not sure what I havent had my rda of coffee yet but anyways whay would your choice be? http://www.reefs.org/ubb/ultimatebb....&f=27&t=000121 TIA Jeff __________________ Hmmmmm what to put here???

01-12-2002, 01:15 PM	#2
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,724	Hi Jeff, I believe I saw that last week so I don't have to review it to tell you what I would choose in your situation. Remember that you will be faced with several compromises in choosing any lighting system. These are the limiting factors that you must weigh before choosing your dream lighting: How much money do you want to spend initially and in the cost of electricity and lamp replacement forever after? How much heat are you willing to throw into your tank? Are you planning on getting by without a chiller? If so, you might want to avoid 400 watt lamps of any kind. What pleases you personally? What color would you like your tank to be and can you achieve that economically without breaking the budget or adding too much heat? And last, but not least, remember that not all 250w lamps are created equal. My first choice for the best bang for the buck would be 2250w 6500K Iwasakis with 2110w URI VHO Super Actinics. My next choice would be 2250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps with actinic supplementation of your choosing. My third choice would be a combination of 2250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps with either a single Radium 250w 20,000K mogul base lamp in the middle, or possibly 2*150w 20,000K HQI DE lamps with a single 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamp in the middle... plus actinic supplementation if you feel like it. I have not seen any test results yet on the 150w 20,000K HQI DE lamps but I wonder if they are anywhere near as nice as the 150w 10,000K HQI DE lamps? Those recommendations are kinda in ascending order of cost. If you wanted to go ballistic on costs, you could consider 400w sizes of the 20,000K or 6500K or 10,000K and guarantee that you would need a chiller. Ninong

01-12-2002, 01:51 PM	#3
stang69 Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA; 98310 Posts: 952	I would like the best quality light possible for the sps corals based on the 250 watt choices. In this I mean would the Iwasaki's be the best suppl;imented with the 96 watt atenics? Reason being I have the 96 watters already and that would save money. Or do I go with the Oshio's and no supplimentation? Jeff __________________ Hmmmmm what to put here???

01-13-2002, 01:44 AM	#6
stang69 Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA; 98310 Posts: 952	Sigh __________________ Hmmmmm what to put here???

01-13-2002, 10:19 AM	#9
stang69 Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA; 98310 Posts: 952	Tank is 60x18x24 deep. I have a stand and canopy (12 inchs tall canopy and 36 inchc tall stand BYW) being built for it and the dual 96's are a retro kit. The dual 250 mh is coming and it is a PFO. Jeff __________________ Hmmmmm what to put here???

01-12-2002, 02:26 PM	#4
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,724	OK, that's an easy question to answer. Remember that light intensity is the most important factor in coral health and growth. This is not to say that you should add up the total wattage. That means next to nothing because some lamps are very wimpy compared to others of the same wattage. So, let's assume that you have eliminated 400-watt anything from consideration... and let's further assume that you will use your present 96w PC actinics (they are PCs, right? because if they were 36" VHOs they would be 95w) for dawn/dusk effects and for actinic supplementation. I would use them with either the 6500K Iwasakis or the 10,000K HQI DE lamps. So now we are down to a choice of either 2250w 6500K Iwasaki mogul base lamps or 2250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps. They are about equal in total PAR but the 10,000K HQI DE lamps will give your tank a more bluish-white appearance than the 6500K Iwasakis. The Iwasakis cost $59 each to replace and the 10,000K HQI DE lamps cost $85 each to replace. You could run the Iwasakis about 18 months and the 10,000K HQI DE lamps about 14 months. Shallow water SPS are more adapted to the 6500K color and anything just a little deeper would be more adapted to 10,000K color. Either lamp will work well with SPS but you will notice differences in coloration of your corals because their symbiotic zooxanthellae will be adapting to a different spectral mix. Color is not necessarily an indication of health, per se. This is where you make your decision based on what you think you will like best as far as the appearance of your tank and the appearance of the corals in your tank. It's a close call but I would choose the 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps (in fact, I already have). But... the HQI DE lamps are more difficult to DIY, if that's what you had in mind. Mine are in an Aquastarlight fixture and I have a separate fixture with 2*55w German 03 actinic PCs for dawn/dusk and actinic supplementation. Ninong

01-12-2002, 05:47 PM	#5
Ironreef Governor Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Pacific WA Posts: 1,220	whatever you use use the pc also. use more lighitng imo

01-13-2002, 04:31 AM	#7
Ironreef Governor Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Pacific WA Posts: 1,220	put it this whay I dunno about pc but vho i can get 1 iwaski and 2 actinic vho for the price of ushio 10k. = the 250w + the 220w of vho =more lighing which is better. If you use the ushio I would use the pc also.The only way I wouldn't use the pc is if I was tryng to say power.

01-13-2002, 10:31 AM	#10
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,724	How is the tank braced across the top? Is there one glass brace across the middle? Or what? Ninong P.S. -- Obviously we can forget about the suspended fixtures and we can forget about HQI DE lamps since you have already ordered the PFO dual 250w ballast (unless it's the PFO HQI ballast, which I'm sure it's not).

01-13-2002, 10:38 AM	#11
stang69 Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA; 98310 Posts: 952	It is a truvue acrilic tankwith the normal openings for acrylic tanks. and no it isnt the hqi pfo __________________ Hmmmmm what to put here???

01-13-2002, 10:39 AM	#12
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,724	OK, does Tru-Vu have two top openings on their 60" long tank or three?

01-13-2002, 10:41 AM	#13
stang69 Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA; 98310 Posts: 952	two thus the dual mh. not to sound like a smartbutt but thats why I bought a dual I figured one socket per hole __________________ Hmmmmm what to put here???

01-13-2002, 10:48 AM	#14
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,724	Yes, that makes perfect sense to me, too. It's just that I obviously didn't understand what your setup was until just now. If I were you, I would sell the PC retro kit as it will be difficult to work into your canopy. How about going with 2250w 6500K Iwasaki lamps plus 2140w URI VHO Super Actinics (or 2*110w URI VHO Super Actinics if the 60" size won't fit)??? You would have to use the 12" size reflectors but you should still have adequate coverage. If you ever wanted to throw more money into the setup, you could add a Radium 250w 20,000K HQI mogul base lamp in the middle provided it didn't heat up your acrylic center brace too much. Ninong

01-13-2002, 10:53 AM	#15
stang69 Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA; 98310 Posts: 952	Why do you think the 96's wont fit in the canopy? they are only 36 ;ong I was going to mount one in front and one in the rear of the MH's. Does the VHO give off that much more Atenic lighting? I will have the 03 bulbs in both 96w sockets __________________ Hmmmmm what to put here???

01-13-2002, 11:03 AM	#17
stang69 Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA; 98310 Posts: 952	If I were to mount the 96's how wold you do it front and back or both fromt both back? jeff __________________ Hmmmmm what to put here???

01-13-2002, 11:06 AM	#18
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,724	I believe that I would mount them as you originally proposed: one in the front and one in the back. Ninong P.S. -- Or, both in the back to give the rear of the tank an appearance of "depth," or both in the front to have maximum impact on the coloration of the 6500K Iwasakis.

01-13-2002, 11:08 AM	#19
stang69 Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Bremerton, WA; 98310 Posts: 952	Ok i guess theIwasakis win so I wil order them later today then any suggestions where I have found that hellolights.com is about the cheapest any other suggestions? jeff __________________ Hmmmmm what to put here???

01-13-2002, 11:10 AM	#20
Ninong Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Louisiana Posts: 19,724	I don't have any experience with HelloLights, but Ltspd (Paul Christopher) seems to like them. Ninong P.S. -- I added a P.S. to my previous reply to complicate matters.

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