MH/HQI lighting for 72g bow

[bowfront]

Need some help in deciding what kind of lighting would be best for my situation. I have a well stocked mixed species 72g with a few SPS. I am looking to expand my SPS collection and to do this will need to up my lighting. Currently I'm running a vanilla 4x110w IceCap VHO lighting system. My plans are to keep the IceCap 660 and tame it down to 2 actinic bulbs. My problem is deciding on what MH/HQI lights would be best. I am currently siding toward PFO HQI mini pendants mounted in a 3 sided 12-14" tall wooden canopy. Obviously other options would be 2x175w or 2x250w moguls. If I go with HQI it would be a choice between 150w or 250w. One major concern is heat. I live in Florida and don't want major heat battles in the summer. I plan to build my canopy with 2 4" fans one blowing in and one blowing out. I already have 2 IceCap fans but if anyone had other suggestions I would welcome them. You guys seem to be experts at helping people out so please do your thing here. Money is not the major consideration this time. I have been at this hobby for a long time and have learned that it's best to do things right the first time. Please give me some clues.

[bowfront]

Ltspd,

Ok now I am getting a little confused. Are your bulbs all DE or are they a mix of mogul and DE? Regardless of that you mention that the mini pendants are the worst fixture for DE bulbs because of the spread issue. What else is available other than a DIY? Can anyone tell me if the enclosed pendants such as PFO would generate more heat than a regular mogul bulb of comparable wattage. I have not ruled out a standard or HQI mogul setup so if I went that route what would be the best choices? Whatever I go with will probably be supplimented with VHO since I already have an IceCap ballast/bulbs.

Charlie

[golfish]

Heat: one thing I think I'll do this year (If I don't get a chiller) is cut a few holes in the top of my canopy and install or repostion a fan or two blowing air up and out of the canopy........

As many fans as I use and the amont of eveaporation I have, I'm almost convinced it would be cheaper to run a chiller.

You know my postion on your lighting. I think you'll get a lot of votes for the HQI's from this BB


BTW, WELCOME TO REEFLAND


Mark

[bowfront]

Hey Mark,

Glad I found this spot. I've never used RT much before but I like that they have a seperate lighting section. Still banging my head against the wall trying to decide. I was hoping for more input here but it's Saturday. Your suggestion is still up high on the list. I really originally wanted to try something different and more efficient than regular MH but maybe there isn't anything earth shaking out there. I really don't want to piece some kind of home brew HQI setup together. I was looking for a plug and play - thus the mini pendants but no one seems to be giving them very high grades. Good to see that you are here also.

Charlie

[Ltspd]

Charlie
This is what you need.
http://reefcentral.com/vbulletin/sho...threadid=56713

I have seen this in person and it is a very nice setup.

All my bulbs are HQI.

As far as heat on my DIY HQI canopy. I use NO fans. My tank temp climbs only 2 degrees I have vent holes cut in the top, back and sides of the canopy.

You can not blow air on the HQI bulbs.

[bowfront]

Thanks again Paul,

I have thought about the AB Spacelight that you point out and granted it looks like a nice package but....

1. I really want to have a fully enclosed canopy which I have become used to in the past.

2. I would like to suppliment whatever MH/HQI setup I use with VHO, which I already have and like.

3. I have already contracted for construction of a custom MH type wooden canopy to be constructed for my odd shape tank (bow front).
I have held off on starting the project until I pick out my exact lighting type/reflectors etc.

From what I can see my options at this point are:

A. HQI DE setup. My major attraction to this idea was the possibilty of using lower wattage bulbs (150w DE) and thus minimizing heat/power use. Supprisingly everyone that has said yes go this way has recommended that I forego the 150w and use 250w. This kind of defeats my original purpose IMO.

B. Normal 250w mogul setup. This would be either Iwasaki 6.5k or Ushio 10k bulbs + 2 VHO actinics. This system works as documented by many others but it isn't really earthshaking or power conservative.
I would like comments on which bulb and why for those of you that think this may be the smartest.

C. Lower wattage moguls either 175w Ushio or 150w Iwasaki. This would save power/heat but also limit intensity for SPS. I have no idea of what the PAR of 150w Iwasaki 6.5k's are but if they are as much as 175w Ushio I would probably favor them.

Don't forget that either system will enclosed in a wooden canopy (12-14" high) with the standard double 4" fan thing. If I go HQI I am still thinking about the mini pendants because they look easy to deal with and are a packaged unit w/UV shielding and quality reflector. I know the spread isn't good but is this really an issue in an 18" wide at center bow?

Any additional response is welcome. Basically I'm asking if this was your tank what would you do?

[Ltspd]

If it were my tank.

* Since it is a 72 I would think that the 150w HQI's would be fine. Remeber that these are the bulbs that I posted about in the other thread where Sanjay compared them to the 400w Iwasaki's. IMO if you go mogul then go with 250's minimum. And the brand and type make a huge diffrence. Once again see Ninong's comments in the other thread. Here again you are wanting a SPS tank, and you want to save elec, IMO you cant have your cake and eat it too. The 250's are still the best bet IMO.

* I would not use VHO's in the setup, I would use NO. Still can be run on the IC setup. IMO the 2x110w 48" VHO actinic's would be to blue for my taste. The VHO's will do nothing but add to a heat issue. Like I have said I am only running NO actinics to balance out 650w of 10kk HQI bulbs and I am happy. This is your tank, if you like more blue than its your decesion. If you went with Iwasaki's then you would need the VHO's to balance them out IMO.

*I would NOT enclose the tank with the hood. You are asking for heat issue's IMO. If you do go this route leave the back open, vent the top and do what ever you need to do to prevent the use of a chiller (extra elec conspmtion)

* Like I have posted quite a few times. The AB lights use a glass called Schott Durax. I spoke with the Engineers at Schott and this glass is nothing more than tempared regular glass with NO speicial UV coating Here is the contact page http://www.schott.com/english/contact/index.html
So, if AB feels that this glass is good enough for their products then tempared glass is good enough for mine. Also this may be of intrest in regards to the UV issue http://reefcentral.com/vbulletin/sho...ght=HQI+and+UV

* You CAN NOT blow air across the HQI bulbs. These are diffrent from the standard halide bulbs with the outer casing. DO NOT blow across HQI's.

* The pendants provide poor spread, ask Golfish how he likes his HQI pendant. If you did go with pendants then you can blow air across the hood.

Basicaly you have to give things up to gain others.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by Ltspd:

The pendants provide poor spread, ask Golfish how he likes his HQI pendant.

I believe it is because Golfish has his pendant mounted too close to the water. Also, don't forget that his tank is 30" front-to-back.

If I am not mistaken, I believe a 72-gal bowfront tank runs 13"W at the sides and 18"W in the middle of the tank. If the mini-pendants were mounted 6" (or more) above the water, I am sure they would more than adequately cover the spread in a 72-gal bowfront tank.

While the 150w 10,000K HQI DE lamps would be adequate, the 250w size would give more intensity for coloring up SPS. I wouldn't be too concerned about whether two 110w URI VHO Super Actinics might be "too blue" with the 10,000K HQI DE lamps because if they are, just make one of them Actinic White.

If you want to go HQI DE lamps without all the trouble of a major DIY project, the mini pendants might be the best solution. At least with them you can keep your two fans without having to worry about whether they are blowing directly on the exposed lamps.

The other possibilities would be two 250w mogul base metal halide lamps between the two VHO fluorescents. Since the space in the canopy is so narrow, you wouldn't have enough room for regular reflectors. About all you could do would be a flat sheet of reflective aluminum lining the inside of the canopy. The strongest choice here would probably be the 250w 6500K Iwasaki lamps, which work well with two 110w URI VHO Super Actinics for supplementation. This would give you tons of PAR for SPS, too. Other choices would be 250w 10,000K mogul base lamps from either AB or Ushio and you could even consider the new Radium 250w 20,000K HQI mogul base lamps--in this case you would definitely want to change at least one of the VHO fluorescents to Aquasun.

Ninong

[bowfront]

Ninong, thanks for the response. I have a few questions:

If you want to go HQI DE lamps without all the trouble of a major DIY project, the mini pendants might be the best solution. At least with them you can keep your two fans without having to worry about whether they are blowing directly on the exposed lamps. Ninong

Would 2 of these mini pendants w/250w DE bulbs add more/less/same heat than dual mogul 250w Iwasakis?

The other possibilities would be two 250w mogul base metal halide lamps between the two VHO fluorescents. Since the space in the canopy is so narrow, you wouldn't have enough room for regular reflectors. Ninong

What about thisreflector It only measures 12.25" wide and my canopy will be 13" or slightly wider at the narrowest points. Even has mounts for 2 VHO's. Am I missing something?

Ok the let's assume the choices have been limited to a 250w DE HQI setup or a 250w saki setup. What ballasts would be my best choice for each and any special considerations when having the canopy built. BTW, I am planning an open back wooden canopy with fans at each end one blowing in the other out. These would be IceCaps which I already have. Any ideas for venting the top to allow heat but not light out? At the moment I'm siding toward the mogul setup mainly because I could probably save $300 or so and still have plenty of light for anything.

[Ninong]

Probably not much difference in total heat between two mini pendants with 250w HQI DE lamps and two 250w 6500K Iwasakis since both would have remote ballasts.

I followed your link to the 24" PFO reflector at P.A. That's a nice reflector provided you are going with medium base lamps, like the Iwasaki 150w 6500K or 50,000K medium base lamps. You need to find the one that says it is for mogul base lamps. I'm sure they have one. I forgot about those PFO parallel reflectors that have space for the VHO tubes inside the metal halide reflector. That sound like an excellent choice to me. Just make sure it says mogul base sockets for the metal halides.

Since you are using two 110w URI VHO Super Actinics for supplementation, I would recommend the 250w Iwasaki 6500K metal halides as your best choice. This should give you an almost crisp white overall appearance with the VHO actinics on to supplement the 6500K. If you prefer a bluish-white overall appearance, then go with 250w 10,000K mogul base lamps, either AB or Ushio. AB would be a bit more bluish than Ushio. But the 250w 6500K Iwasakis would give you more PAR and they are cheaper to replace. I don't have any specific recommendation on the ballasts as Iwasaki says one thing and everybody else says another when it comes to choosing the best ballast for Iwasaki lamps.

Ninong

P.S. -- OK, I lied, here's a ballast recommendation for the 250w 6500K Iwasaki lamps: Magnetek, Cat. #1110-246-C-TC. Sanjay Joshi recently tested the new 250w Iwasaki 6500K lamps (EYE Clean Ace MT250DL/BH-E39/41R) using that ballast and produced some really excellent PAR measurements. Iwasaki, however, still insists that their 250w & 400w 6500K mogul base lamps must be run on MV ballasts only. But nobody seems to be paying attention to that anyway.

[Ironreef]

If you need to keep the pendant high you are going to lose all or wanted par to keep spread which is kina redundant for having bulbs with par if you need to keep them igh for spread. Make sence? I would het 250hqi to make up for any loss

[Ltspd]

I suggest either the 150 or the 250. They will power both the Iwasaki and the HQI bulbs. I know, I have fired both with this ballast.

http://www.hellolights.com/elbalmethal1.html

Its more money, but IMO worth it in the long run.

[Ironreef]

http://www.fitermania.com/aquarium/ he uses a 250w hqi double endon a 29g. But now uses 2 on a 75g 1 mogul 1 double end. I would go with the 250w if you plan on alot of sps and clams if not then it maynot matter

[bowfront]

Ok we're getting close to a decision here..

Ninong

Any idea if that is the same one used by PFO in their standard MH 250w ballast

Ltspdl

Thanks for all of your help/comments. I really don't want a DIY electrical project like planning/wiring a DE HQI setup right now so I am probably going to stick with a mogul but I've flip flopped on this several times already. BTW, as far as Golfish's situation I have to agree with Ninong. I think it's probably the wide tank and short distance to the water of his mini pendant that is causing at least part of his problem. I honestly think the mini pendants look pretty good but wish they were a little cheaper to rig. So you are having good luck with that ballast huh? How long have you been using it?

Ironreef

I get the idea. I will be gong with 250's either way. I can't open your link but that sounds like Mtdewman I think it is. I've corresponded with him and seen a few pictures of his tank. BTW, if its him he's running 3 VHO actiinics along with the HQI's and it looks nice at least in the picuture.

Thanks guys for all the replies!

[golfish]

* The pendants provide poor spread, ask Golfish how he likes his HQI pendant. If you did go with pendants then you can blow air across the hood.

I don't have a probem with the spread, its the light that I don't care much for. I don't use actinics to supplement the Ushio 10K's so the light is, IMO, kind of blaw. I have read that the AB DE bulb is a little better. I think I'll give that a try later this year. If the 20K's make it over here then I'll try those.

The mini pendants are very easy to setup and use. They would make a fine light for your needs. Adding 4 VHO's will only make the light better. The bulbs are cheaper and said to last longer then mogul base bulbs (except Iwasaki). There is no proof that they last longer and I hate to even repeat it. Mine are 10 months old. I figure on going 15 months before changing them out.


Mark

[Ironreef]

I fixed the link. You may want to ask him why he went with the mogul hqi instead of another double end pendant on his 75g?? i dunno myself . He has a 250hqi he's selling as a canopysetup but I would think one would want both double end insead of 1 double and 1 mogul. But he may not have see a diff in coral grwoth? Dunno Just thoughts

[bowfront]

Ironreef

That's the same guy I was talking about before. BTW, he says that the mogul looks slightly brighter/whiter to him. I'm not sure why he is running a mixed setup but probably trying to utilize exisiting hardware.

golfish

So we can count on not hearing about the poor spread of mini pendants anymore. Anyway I like the looks of them and would probably give them a try but.....

there's the price thing

Iwasaki 250w setup w/reflector/socket/bulb/PFO ballast = $400
PFO dual mini pendants w/10k bulb/PFO HQI ballast = $700

also there's the PPFD thing

The HQI got higher marks on this report by Sanjay but is it worth $300 extra for a bluer looking tank and 20% more PPDF? Especially since the Iwaski bulbs are proven coral growers. In my case I can build the canopy and install the lights for the same $$$ that it would cost me to buy the mini pendants. IMO both will work well to maintain an SPS dominated tank of my size.

I haven't placed the order yet so if anyone would like to open my eye's to something I'm missing here's your chance. Once again thanks to everyone for responding.

[Ninong]

Bowfront,

I will repeat what I said in my earlier post above. Go with the dual 24" PFO parallel reflectors with two 250w mogul base metal halides and two 110w URI VHO Super Actinics. Make sure that the ballast you choose will run both Iwasaki and AB-10000 metal halide lamps. The Magnetek ballast that I mentioned above was used by Sanjay in his most recent tests to run both the 250w 6500K Iwasaki and the 250w 10,000K AB-10000 (which AB insists is an actual 13,000 Kelvin).

One thing you may not be aware of since you are referencing an older test that Sanjay did, is that the 250w AB-10000 measured 110.9 PPFD in this most recent test. So, since there is only a little difference in PAR between the 250w Iwasaki 6500K and the 250w AB-10000, you might want to base your decision on the appearance of the tank and the appearance of certain corals in the tank. Remember that blues, purples and pinks will show up much better under higher Kelvin temperatures. I believe you will be OK with either the Iwasaki or the AB-Aqualine lamps but you may want to ask yourself if you would prefer the tank to be more bluish-white or not, in which case you should try the AB lamps. If you don't like them you can always switch to the Iwasakis later.

Ninong

P.S. -- Don't forget that Sanjay ran all of his tests without glass UV shields. You have to reduce the PPFD results for the Ushio 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamp by at least 10% to account for absorption by the shield in the PFO mini-pendant, giving you a net measurement of 116 PPFD. Incidentally, even though Sanjay does not say so in the test you referenced, he did use Ushio DE lamps. Another point is that he ran all of his tests (with the exception of his most recent 150w 10,000K HQI DE test) without reflectors of any kind and with the center arc of the lamp positioned 18" from the receptor. All of the readings would be much higher with a reflector and with the lamps positioned closer than 18".

[bowfront]

Thanks Ninong,

I think I am definitelly going to go with the setup that you have recommended. Sounds like the AB 10k mogul bulb may have tested differentlly/better than the Ushio 10k mogul. Since I don't have access to Sanjay's most recent data can you fill me in on the PPDF of the Ushio bulb if he tested it. Ushio seems to be more popular with mo outlets and one in particular told me that they don't normally handle AB bulbs anymore because they had a higher number of problems with this bulb than with Ushio. I'm just repeating what I was told I haven't read this elsewhere.

Thanks again to everyone who responded on this thread. My final decision was based on cost more than anything. I still think the PFO mini pendants look like a nice little unit that could function very well on any tank. If I could have substituted the 10k DE 150w setup for what I am ordering without worrying that I was missing something I might have gone with the mini pendants. When it became apparent that the choice was between 250w DE or 250w mogul I just coulldn't justify the extra cost in my own mind. To anyone with deeper pockets I would say definitly consider the HQI DE's.

[golfish]

Like I suggested a few weeks ago and Ninong has suggested above. I would go with the 24" PFO reflectors and run 4 VHO's instead of two. There's plenty of room in those reflectors for 4 VHO bulbs. I like the Iwasaki's just because their cheaper and last longer. The PFO standard ballast would be the best ballast choice, IMO

The ballast Paul has does seem like a good ballast tho....


This setup will give you more to work with when you upgrade tank size. I don't want to mislead you. I don't have a problem with the spead on my pendants but then I'm running 3 MH's on a 48"long x 24"tall x 30"wide tank. The spread is not all that great on these pendants, its just not a problem for me. I'm SURE it won't be a problem for you on your 72 gal tank.


Mark