VHO's SPS and GARF

**scubadude** · 07-16-2002, 11:53 PM

I know most of you guys are so gung ho on MH's but I must admit that GARF as well as others have had Very good success with raising SPS under VHO's from what I hear....I have actually witnessed awesome coloration of SPS grown under VHO's though....Heres my 2 concerns on this issue:

1. I have bought a few frags that were absolutely stunning grown under VHO's and they just didnt fair well making a very slow and easy acclimation to my 90g MH tank (2 - 175 watters)

2. We automatically look at SPS and say....OOOH aHHHH...thats pretty so we automatically think its healthy....Is this right? Are they actually healthy? I do think there are alot of hardcore reefers that Overexxagerate (sp?) lighting issues. Is it possible to concentrate more on things like Calcium, water quality, food (zooplankton) and not be so hung up on lighting?

On a last note ppl....I am by no means agreeing with all that GARF does! Plez dont kick the cat just cuz I threw the word GARF into this thread!

**golfish** · 07-17-2002, 12:29 AM

Rocky,
I think some SPS will do good under VHO's and PC's but most wont. From my experience the good stuff turns brown under VHO's or PC's. I saw what I concider the best SPS tank I have ever seen. The owner was nice enough to let us pick out what ever we wanted in his main tank. Its a 220 with 2x400 watt Radiums and 4x175 watt 10k's.

Most of the stuff we wanted he had fragged and was in another room. These frags\small colonies were kept in smaller tanks under PC lighting. The frags were very healthy but all brown. They didn't even look the same. One month later the color is back and looking great under my MH's.

I have seen lots of SPS tanks in the past few years and have never seen anything other then grow out tanks that were not using MH's.

I think Calcium and water quality are very important. I don't feed my corals, I feed the fish. I stopped feeding Golden pearls, DT's and the like about 6 months ago. I don't see any change. IMO, lighting is everything for most SPS

**scubadude** · 07-17-2002, 12:45 AM

Ok...I understand completely Mark, but whats your take on garf? do you not believe them? do you think their pics are edited in photoshop? I want your honest opinion! Have you seen the pics on their site? OMG the coloring is unreal...and Have you ever seen a good variety of SPS that where grown under VHO's that had awesome coloring? I have. I couldnt believe it...but I know for a fact this guy has been doing it! He is a coral farmer. This is a heated topic obviously, but I dont really understand...I have heard ppl say stuff like...Oh you need 4 - 400watters over a 6' SPS tank...IMO thats so much BS! However I do think stuffing a 40long with a bunch of SPS and a couple of NO's strips is the other side of the extremity.

naser · 07-17-2002, 02:19 AM

well i'll chime in... i think its definatly possible to have that nice color and growth with vho's. i mean use 4 and your basically running a raduim that 4 feet long.. you must also see the set-ups of there tanks.. the vho's are set in water proof acylic thing right on top of the water.. and if you also notice of full shots that there also like huge shelves built up to be close to the top. i definatly think its possible you just might need them closer then a mh that can project further into the tank.

naser · 07-17-2002, 02:21 AM

maybe 4 vhos and one 175 watt hqi? you get the nice coloration of vho's plus somthing that will go alittle deeper along with it. sorry im debating this with myself lately..

**scubadude** · 07-17-2002, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by naser
you must also see the set-ups of there tanks.. the vho's are set in water proof acylic thing right on top of the water.

Very good point, and if I remember right arent the tanks pretty shallow naser?

Quote:

Originally posted by naser
sorry im debating this with myself lately

Talkin to your self Neil?

Hey bud feel free to work it out...You really got me thinking....I have been doing some test with my lux meter and the distances of my MH's away from the water is surprising how much we lose our par! So putting your bulbs real close to the water does wonders for any light i think! Very good point!

naser · 07-17-2002, 11:35 AM

i spent all night and a few before looking through there website.. appears a guy also has a 120 gallon with acro's appearing almost all the way down. i know most of there tanks are 55 built up with rock. but his was much deeper being a 125 all he had lighting it was like 3 40 no and 2 vho's. with great color. im almost wanting to think with proper levels of food in the water and lower lighting the same affect can be accheived. im gonna be selling my 55 and buying a 4*2*2. its about 120 gallons i figure. maybe alittle shallower. i will be implementing this lighting that i post earlier. the 4 110 vho's plus on 175 hqi in the middle.. in doing this i will slowley dismantle the 55 as i add more and more sps's to the bigger tank.. might frag em and see the difference? not sure yet still in the thinking process.

**golfish** · 07-17-2002, 11:52 AM

Rocky,
I have seen Garf's pictures and really have no comment except that I wouldn't use VHO's on my tank. As a matter of fact I'm selling the two 250 watt DE pendants and going to 400 watt Radiums. I have a few large coral heads that I've fragged out to people that are using the Radium bulbs. The color change on the corals are incredible, I just can't get that from the 10K's

Mark

naser · 07-17-2002, 08:56 PM

your also talking about mh to mh not vho to mh...

**golfish** · 07-18-2002, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by naser
your also talking about mh to mh not vho to mh...

???????????????

Elmo18 · 07-18-2002, 06:25 PM

golfish,

I think Naser was responding to the comparison you made with your 250 DE pendants versus the 400 watt Radiums. I believe that's what he meant when he said quote "mh to mh, not mh to vho"

Just trying to clarify,

Elmo

naser · 07-18-2002, 08:14 PM

exactly what i was saying.. your comparing 250 mh to a 400.. no comparison. how ever were talking about the stunning colors that garf is getting with vho's and NO bulbs. i think if you have exelent water quality, and you feed the right amounts you can obtain nice colors with lower levels of lighting. its the same with anemone's. lower light levels the more nutrients they need..

SueT · 07-19-2002, 07:30 PM

I only wanted to add that I have actually gotten frags from garf a long time ago and on 3 occassions. What I got were tiny <.5" pieces that were nothing more than brown, darker brown or tan in color. I know that the frags that you see or corals in their own tanks are not what you can order, so I don't know if what they sell is different than what you see. Yes, the pics are great and if you could get your hands on one of those frags I would be interested to see if those had color or not. I have always heard the pics were duped but I would not point fingers. I know that none of the frags I had ever colored up to anything. Don't know if this helps or not. It is first hand experience though.

my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 ecosystem sps/clam tank:
http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html

**golfish** · 07-19-2002, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by naser
exactly what i was saying.. your comparing 250 mh to a 400.. no comparison. how ever were talking about the stunning colors that garf is getting with vho's and NO bulbs. i think if you have exelent water quality, and you feed the right amounts you can obtain nice colors with lower levels of lighting. its the same with anemone's. lower light levels the more nutrients they need..

My point was that in my case I'm moving up to a better MH light, just because I feel the HQI's are not all that ...Until I see nice colored SPS under VHO's I'll have no opinon on it other then their brown.

Naser, have you ever used a 250 watt DE HQI bulb? Do you really believe everything you read or see on the www? If so I have a bridge for sell.

naser · 07-19-2002, 09:27 PM

ive acctually used 400 watt hqi's. color was fine. its more of low wattage hence low power bills and keep color conversation.. never said i beleive anything. its called debate not knock someone down cause they think its possible to have the same color from low wattage that youd get from 3 400 hqi's.. im done.

**scubadude** · 07-19-2002, 10:42 PM

Did I start this?

Well its gonna take alot for this ole country boy to use VHO's (exclusively) for SPS but I think I may do some experimenting w/vho and partial sunlight w/SPS and see how that goes. I Havent ever gotten anything from GARF to tell you the truth....not directly anyway but I have pieces in my tank that are from GARF supposedly. Like this one

Which I got from a Trapper and he says he got it from GARF and it was this color when he got it....Trapper you out there bud? Cmon dont be afeard of these GARF bashers....hehe

**golfish** · 07-19-2002, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by naser
ive acctually used 400 watt hqi's. color was fine. its more of low wattage hence low power bills and keep color conversation.. never said i beleive anything. its called debate not knock someone down cause they think its possible to have the same color from low wattage that youd get from 3 400 hqi's.. im done.

Little touchy today ah Naser? I must of missed the lower wattage stuff, maybe you can point that part out to me. I thought this was a VHO vs MH's thread. I've seen some pretty nice SPS tanks running just two 250 watt MH's and that's really not a whole hec of a lot more watt's then say 440 watts of VHO's.

Most people (myself included) who have used 250 watt DE MH's will say their as good or better then most 400 watt SE bulbs. The test pretty much prove that. I'm switching because 75% of the sps corals I have look better under 400 watt Radiums. I know this because of other reefers who have some of my corals.

Rocky, If anybody can make it work you can. My only thought is that running 2x250 watt or one 400 watt MH would be better then 440 watt's of VHO's.

Quote:

Originally posted by naser
maybe 4 vhos and one 175 watt hqi?

I'd be interested to know where you've seen 175 watt HQI's

naser · 07-20-2002, 03:15 PM

you know everytime you chime in on a post you bash me and everytime we dont get along. why even talk to me if your not civil. the first post was talking about vho's exclusivly not 400 watt hqi's. talking about quality and food not mh's. oh and sorry if i wrote 175 instead of 150 big deal.

**golfish** · 07-20-2002, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by naser
you know everytime you chime in on a post you bash me and everytime we dont get along. why even talk to me if your not civil. the first post was talking about vho's exclusivly not 400 watt hqi's. talking about quality and food not mh's. oh and sorry if i wrote 175 instead of 150 big deal.

I'm just responding to your post towards me and asking you to point out where I missed the lower wattage stuff. You then said this thread was about VHO's. I thought Rocky was asking about keeping SPS under VHO's vs MH's. I'm not bashing you just asking you to point out the stuff I missed.

This was the first thing you said to me on this thread your also talking about mh to mh not vho to mh... I think I know that..Again, too me this thread is about SPS under VHO's vs MH's. I was pointing out to Rocky that I'm changing to what I feel is a better MH light. I never relied or responded to you until you wrote the above quote. If you didn't like or agree with what I wrote then don't reply back. If you do reply back then your going to get another from me. GOT IT!

**scubadude** · 07-20-2002, 04:24 PM

Ok it has basically been proven that MH's have much more PAR right? but I think most ppl would agree (atleast the ones who have had MH's for a while) that halides have hotspots and the intensity levels areas are somewhat spurratic compared to VHO's which have a better spread than MH's? You guys agree w/me so far? Ok that being said wouldnt VHO's be a much better lighting system for a setup that has JUST as many watts (or very close to it) but a very shallow tank...say like 12" as a frag ONLY system with nothing but frags all throughout the tank very evenly distrubuted. and the frags just a few inches below the water line and the VHO's just a few inches above the water line. I mean it makes more sense that VHOS have a very even and balanced spread...but yes the intensity is just no where near MH's

Mark remember how you disliked the spread of the HQI's. My theory is to evaluate every single square inch of the water column for growth as well. This will probably make the corals grow in a more balanced predictable manner....but Some of us like Odd irregular growth patterns. Oh yeah FWIW I have been thinking of playing around w/some Radiums. I just dont want to get hung up on them....it seems like every 2-3 mos we have a new type of lighting system to analyze...its crazy!

07-16-2002, 11:53 PM	#1
scubadude Moderator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 5,283	VHO's SPS and GARF I know most of you guys are so gung ho on MH's but I must admit that GARF as well as others have had Very good success with raising SPS under VHO's from what I hear....I have actually witnessed awesome coloration of SPS grown under VHO's though....Heres my 2 concerns on this issue: 1. I have bought a few frags that were absolutely stunning grown under VHO's and they just didnt fair well making a very slow and easy acclimation to my 90g MH tank (2 - 175 watters) 2. We automatically look at SPS and say....OOOH aHHHH...thats pretty so we automatically think its healthy....Is this right? Are they actually healthy? I do think there are alot of hardcore reefers that Overexxagerate (sp?) lighting issues. Is it possible to concentrate more on things like Calcium, water quality, food (zooplankton) and not be so hung up on lighting? On a last note ppl....I am by no means agreeing with all that GARF does! Plez dont kick the cat just cuz I threw the word GARF into this thread! __________________ Rocky

07-17-2002, 12:45 AM	#3
scubadude Moderator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 5,283	Ok...I understand completely Mark, but whats your take on garf? do you not believe them? do you think their pics are edited in photoshop? I want your honest opinion! Have you seen the pics on their site? OMG the coloring is unreal...and Have you ever seen a good variety of SPS that where grown under VHO's that had awesome coloring? I have. I couldnt believe it...but I know for a fact this guy has been doing it! He is a coral farmer. This is a heated topic obviously, but I dont really understand...I have heard ppl say stuff like...Oh you need 4 - 400watters over a 6' SPS tank...IMO thats so much BS! However I do think stuffing a 40long with a bunch of SPS and a couple of NO's strips is the other side of the extremity. __________________ Rocky

07-19-2002, 10:42 PM	#16
scubadude Moderator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 5,283	Uh ohhh! Did I start this? Well its gonna take alot for this ole country boy to use VHO's (exclusively) for SPS but I think I may do some experimenting w/vho and partial sunlight w/SPS and see how that goes. I Havent ever gotten anything from GARF to tell you the truth....not directly anyway but I have pieces in my tank that are from GARF supposedly. Like this one Which I got from a Trapper and he says he got it from GARF and it was this color when he got it....Trapper you out there bud? Cmon dont be afeard of these GARF bashers....hehe

07-20-2002, 04:24 PM	#20
scubadude Moderator Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 5,283	Just thinking about this some more Ok it has basically been proven that MH's have much more PAR right? but I think most ppl would agree (atleast the ones who have had MH's for a while) that halides have hotspots and the intensity levels areas are somewhat spurratic compared to VHO's which have a better spread than MH's? You guys agree w/me so far? Ok that being said wouldnt VHO's be a much better lighting system for a setup that has JUST as many watts (or very close to it) but a very shallow tank...say like 12" as a frag ONLY system with nothing but frags all throughout the tank very evenly distrubuted. and the frags just a few inches below the water line and the VHO's just a few inches above the water line. I mean it makes more sense that VHOS have a very even and balanced spread...but yes the intensity is just no where near MH's Mark remember how you disliked the spread of the HQI's. My theory is to evaluate every single square inch of the water column for growth as well. This will probably make the corals grow in a more balanced predictable manner....but Some of us like Odd irregular growth patterns. Oh yeah FWIW I have been thinking of playing around w/some Radiums. I just dont want to get hung up on them....it seems like every 2-3 mos we have a new type of lighting system to analyze...its crazy! __________________ Rocky

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07-17-2002, 12:29 AM	#2
golfish Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Alta Loma,Ca Posts: 2,936	Rocky, I think some SPS will do good under VHO's and PC's but most wont. From my experience the good stuff turns brown under VHO's or PC's. I saw what I concider the best SPS tank I have ever seen. The owner was nice enough to let us pick out what ever we wanted in his main tank. Its a 220 with 2x400 watt Radiums and 4x175 watt 10k's. Most of the stuff we wanted he had fragged and was in another room. These frags\small colonies were kept in smaller tanks under PC lighting. The frags were very healthy but all brown. They didn't even look the same. One month later the color is back and looking great under my MH's. I have seen lots of SPS tanks in the past few years and have never seen anything other then grow out tanks that were not using MH's. I think Calcium and water quality are very important. I don't feed my corals, I feed the fish. I stopped feeding Golden pearls, DT's and the like about 6 months ago. I don't see any change. IMO, lighting is everything for most SPS

07-17-2002, 02:19 AM	#4
naser super-reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: SAN DIEGO, CA Posts: 1,908	well i'll chime in... i think its definatly possible to have that nice color and growth with vho's. i mean use 4 and your basically running a raduim that 4 feet long.. you must also see the set-ups of there tanks.. the vho's are set in water proof acylic thing right on top of the water.. and if you also notice of full shots that there also like huge shelves built up to be close to the top. i definatly think its possible you just might need them closer then a mh that can project further into the tank.

07-17-2002, 02:21 AM	#5
naser super-reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: SAN DIEGO, CA Posts: 1,908	maybe 4 vhos and one 175 watt hqi? you get the nice coloration of vho's plus somthing that will go alittle deeper along with it. sorry im debating this with myself lately..

07-17-2002, 11:35 AM	#7
naser super-reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: SAN DIEGO, CA Posts: 1,908	i spent all night and a few before looking through there website.. appears a guy also has a 120 gallon with acro's appearing almost all the way down. i know most of there tanks are 55 built up with rock. but his was much deeper being a 125 all he had lighting it was like 3 40 no and 2 vho's. with great color. im almost wanting to think with proper levels of food in the water and lower lighting the same affect can be accheived. im gonna be selling my 55 and buying a 422. its about 120 gallons i figure. maybe alittle shallower. i will be implementing this lighting that i post earlier. the 4 110 vho's plus on 175 hqi in the middle.. in doing this i will slowley dismantle the 55 as i add more and more sps's to the bigger tank.. might frag em and see the difference? not sure yet still in the thinking process.

07-17-2002, 11:52 AM	#8
golfish Moderator Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Alta Loma,Ca Posts: 2,936	Rocky, I have seen Garf's pictures and really have no comment except that I wouldn't use VHO's on my tank. As a matter of fact I'm selling the two 250 watt DE pendants and going to 400 watt Radiums. I have a few large coral heads that I've fragged out to people that are using the Radium bulbs. The color change on the corals are incredible, I just can't get that from the 10K's Mark

07-17-2002, 08:56 PM	#9
naser super-reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: SAN DIEGO, CA Posts: 1,908	your also talking about mh to mh not vho to mh...

07-18-2002, 06:25 PM	#11
Elmo18 Governor Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,514	golfish, I think Naser was responding to the comparison you made with your 250 DE pendants versus the 400 watt Radiums. I believe that's what he meant when he said quote "mh to mh, not mh to vho" Just trying to clarify, Elmo

07-18-2002, 08:14 PM	#12
naser super-reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: SAN DIEGO, CA Posts: 1,908	exactly what i was saying.. your comparing 250 mh to a 400.. no comparison. how ever were talking about the stunning colors that garf is getting with vho's and NO bulbs. i think if you have exelent water quality, and you feed the right amounts you can obtain nice colors with lower levels of lighting. its the same with anemone's. lower light levels the more nutrients they need..

07-19-2002, 07:30 PM	#13
SueT Mayor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Houston,Tex. USA Posts: 544	I only wanted to add that I have actually gotten frags from garf a long time ago and on 3 occassions. What I got were tiny <.5" pieces that were nothing more than brown, darker brown or tan in color. I know that the frags that you see or corals in their own tanks are not what you can order, so I don't know if what they sell is different than what you see. Yes, the pics are great and if you could get your hands on one of those frags I would be interested to see if those had color or not. I have always heard the pics were duped but I would not point fingers. I know that none of the frags I had ever colored up to anything. Don't know if this helps or not. It is first hand experience though. my 180 ecosystem sps/clam tank: http://berlinmethod.com/suet/ my 120 ecosystem sps/clam tank: http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html

07-19-2002, 09:27 PM	#15
naser super-reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: SAN DIEGO, CA Posts: 1,908	ive acctually used 400 watt hqi's. color was fine. its more of low wattage hence low power bills and keep color conversation.. never said i beleive anything. its called debate not knock someone down cause they think its possible to have the same color from low wattage that youd get from 3 400 hqi's.. im done.

07-20-2002, 03:15 PM	#18
naser super-reefer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: SAN DIEGO, CA Posts: 1,908	you know everytime you chime in on a post you bash me and everytime we dont get along. why even talk to me if your not civil. the first post was talking about vho's exclusivly not 400 watt hqi's. talking about quality and food not mh's. oh and sorry if i wrote 175 instead of 150 big deal.

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