looking to upgrade to MH/VHO

[bongobrian]

I am seriously considering upgrading my lighting very soon. I wanted to get some opinions on what I should get. I have a 46 gallon currently lit by two 55w power compacts. I've been considering buying a bran new setup, possibly with a combination of a MH daylight bulb and two vho actinics. What do you guys think about this? am I on the right track or should I consider something else as well? I've never had either vho or mh lighs so I don't know exactly what to look for. I was thinking of getting a single 175 w MH probably like 6,500k or 10,000k. I don't want the tank to look yellow, so hopefully having two vho actinics will balance that out. What wattage and brand of vho should I look for? what type of ballast? Does anyone have a link to a good website that might have a setup like this for sale? thanks guys.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by bongobrian

I am seriously considering upgrading my lighting very soon. I wanted to get some opinions on what I should get. I have a 46 gallon currently lit by two 55w power compacts. I've been considering buying a bran new setup, possibly with a combination of a MH daylight bulb and two vho actinics.

Is this a standard AGA 46-gal bowfront? Do you have a canopy on it now? Are you keeping the same canopy or starting over? Are you getting rid of the two 55w PCs? Would they work in a new setup as actinic supplementation for a single metal halide lamp?

What do you guys think about this? am I on the right track or should I consider something else as well? I've never had either vho or mh lighs so I don't know exactly what to look for. I was thinking of getting a single 175 w MH probably like 6,500k or 10,000k. I don't want the tank to look yellow, so hopefully having two vho actinics will balance that out. What wattage and brand of vho should I look for? what type of ballast?

I like metal halide lighting. I especially like the glitter lines. For your size tank, either 150w DE or 175w mogul base halides would be adequate. Naturally you could go up to 250w size if you wanted more light, but it really wouldn't be absolutely necessary. If you decide to get VHO actinics for supplementation, you will want two URI 95w tubes (36" length) super actinics and an Ice-Cap 430 ballast. They would improve the appearance of 10,000K lamps and would be absolutely necessary if you go with a 250w 6500K Iwasaki lamp and are concerned about the tank not having a yellowish appearance. Another interesting possibility would be a 250w 20,000K Radium mogul base lamp supplemented with one 95w URI Super Actinic and one 95w URI AquaSun.

It is impossible to suggest possible choices for your tank without knowing whether it is open top with suspended fixture or closed canopy. If it is closed canopy, then the height inside would have to be taken into consideration before choosing any metal halide lamp.

Does anyone have a link to a good website that might have a setup like this for sale?

Yes, but we would need to know what solutions are possible in your particular situation. Also, you might want to check out some of the For Sale forums for good deals on used equipment: http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin....php?forumid=2

[bongobrian]

Thanks a million Ninong! I can always count on you for a thorough answer. To address some of your questions-

-I wasn't sure what you meant about standard AGA tank, maybe you can clarify that for me.

-I do not currently have a canopy on the tank, it has a glass top with the pc retrofit sitting on top of the glass.

-I am planning on building my own canopy.

-I have actually considered using the pc's as actinics, however, I am concerned about their length... they are only 24" bulbs (I think that's what they are anyway) which are made to fit a 20 gallon tank. I wanted something longer and I like the color put out by the VHO bulbs.

Thanks again for your reply. What you were describing is pretty much what I had in mind (a 150w MH supplimented with two 96w VHO super actinics).

Question- if I were to go with a 20,000k Radium, wouldn't that look too blue with the actinics? Thanks.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by bongobrian

To address some of your questions-
-I wasn't sure what you meant about standard AGA tank, maybe you can clarify that for me.

A standard AGA tank would be a 46-gal bowfront tank manufactured by All-Glass Aquarium Company. It measures 36"L x 15"W x 20"H.

-I do not currently have a canopy on the tank, it has a glass top with the pc retrofit sitting on top of the glass.

That's what I figured. Just sell the PC retrofit or give it away. Because if you are going to try to get by with only one metal halide lamp in your new setup, I think you should ditch the 55w PCs in favor of 95w VHOs. Or save the PCs for use on a refugium later on.

-I am planning on building my own canopy.

Good idea provided you have the tools to do it right. You can find examples of canopies for bowfront tanks online, especially on Reef Central. You will need to bend the wood for the front. Check online for the proper technique. You will need to allow enough height inside for the metal halide lamp to be at least 8" to 9" above the water. Otherwise you will heat the water too much and you won't get good enough light spread. You will need at least one fan for ventilation.

-I have actually considered using the pc's as actinics, however, I am concerned about their length... they are only 24" bulbs (I think that's what they are anyway) which are made to fit a 20 gallon tank. I wanted something longer and I like the color put out by the VHO bulbs.

They do make 36" long 96w PCs but I think the 36" long 95w VHO actinics look better, IMO.

Thanks again for your reply. What you were describing is pretty much what I had in mind (a 150w MH supplimented with two 96w VHO super actinics).

This would work out fine but you would need to go with the 150w 10,000K HQI DE lamp because the 20,000K version would not give you as much PAR. The problem here is that it is difficult to DIY with DE lamps because of the necessary UV shield.

Question- if I were to go with a 20,000k Radium, wouldn't that look too blue with the actinics? Thanks.

That's why I suggested above that if you chose a 250w 20,000K Radium you would want to supplement it with one Super Actinic and one AquaSun. If possible, you would want the Super Actinic to come on first, then the AquaSun and finally the metal halide.

It will be difficult for you to mount any mogul base metal halide in the space that you will have available and still include VHOs unless you use a parallel reflector that includes spaces on either side for the VHOs.

If money is no object, you could get one of the extremely nice IceCap/PFO ready-made hoods for a 36" long tank. These are available with either one metal halide lamp or two. It is one of the very few fixtures that offers two metal halides in a 36" length. It offers a choice of normal output actinic fluorescents, VHO fluorescents or PC fluorescents to supplement the metal halide(s). Check it out: http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch...gory_Code=PFOh

If you wanted to operate that fixture with 250w 20,000K HQI mogul base metal halides (either one or two), you would have to order it with a PFO HQI ballast and no bulbs because they don't offer the 20,000K. You could buy the bulbs separately. The fixtures are drop-shipped directly from the manufacturer.

Anyway, that would be a super nice choice, but also super expensive.

This is what you need if you want to DIY with mogul base metal halide(s): http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merch...y_Code=Sockets

That is a PFO 36"L x 12.25"W x 6.5"H parallel reflector that comes with either one or two mogul sockets plus space to mount two fluorescent tubes. This would just barely fit in your canopy. I think. You would want the canopy to be about 10" to 12" high. You could use this for your choice of 175w 10,000K, 250w 10,000K, 250w 20,000K or 250w 6500K. Again you can get by with only one metal halide but you might want to consider two. Two would be better, one would be adequate with the extra PAR from the two VHO fluorescents.

So... two 250w 6500K Iwasaki metal halides with two 95w URI SuperActinics would be great but not very "bluish." Two 250w 10,000K AB or Ushio metal halides with two 95w URI SuperActinics would look nicer, IMO. Then there is the possibility of going with two 250w 20,000K Radium metal halides plus VHOs. But in this last case you really need to make one of the VHOs an AquaSun to balance out the 20,000K. The first two choices would give you the most PAR but the last one might look great. You would have more than enough PAR if you got two of them but the growth rates would not be quite as strong as either of the first two possibilities. I would be happy with any of those but I might pass on the first one for aesthetic reasons in comparison to the other two.

[Reefland]

Do you know where I could find a picture of a tank with just a 150 or 250 HQI and then one with the HQI and actinics? I really like the color of the 250w HQI alone and planned to go wit just it; maybe use 1 actinic tube for dawn/dusk but I wasn't planning running it all day with the HQI. Is this a possibility for Brian as well?

Scott Z.

[bongobrian]

thanks for the compliment.. I love when ppl call me brain!

[Reefland]

LMAO! My fingers don't always work with my brian! Sorry about that.

[bongobrian]

Ok guys, I just need some basic education here. There are too many abbreviations being thrown at me and I need some clarification on HQI and PFO. I know HQI stands for high quality incandescants right? is it then some sort of alternative to VHO? and what is PFO? it seems to me like it's a certain type of socket?? I think I've got a pretty good grasp of what Ninong was saying, but I'm still a little hazy on what all these terms mean.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by Reefland

Do you know where I could find a picture of a tank with just a 150 or 250 HQI and then one with the HQI and actinics?

Yes. There was pic of a guy's newly redecorated tank with just two 150w 20,000K HQI DE lamps in two Giesemann Nova II suspended fixtures on RC recently. I believe his tank was 6' long, too. The color was nice but very bluish and he commented that the light did not appear intense enough. He had no other lighting. I believe he was living abroad but I don't remember which country.

There are lots of pics on RC showing virtually every lighting combination imaginable. You just have to look for them.

I really like the color of the 250w HQI alone and planned to go wit just it; maybe use 1 actinic tube for dawn/dusk but I wasn't planning running it all day with the HQI. IS this a possibility for brain as well?

That is one way to do it but not the way I would do it. Even though the 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamp is full spectrum (I have heard it called "full spectrum violet"), I feel that it's appearance is enhanced with actinic supplementation. It would be enhanced even more with the addition of more blue light, such as the 20,000K, but that's getting a bit pricey. I don't think either you or Brian should turn off your actinics during the day.

To give you an idea of my thinking: right now I am setting up my 120-gal tank with two 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps + 25w moonlight in an Aquastarlight Future fixture along with a 48" long Phazer II fixture with two German 55w true actinic PCs--that fixture was FREE. I want to see if I can get by with that setup without a chiller first. Ideally, I would love to dump the PC actinics in favor of adding a second AB-Aqualine fixture: a 48" long Aquaspacelight with two 250w 20,000K HQI DE lamps plus two 24w Osram PC actinics. (Waiting for the 250w 20,000K HQI DE lamps to become available.) The aquaspacelight is 12" wide and the aquastarlight future is 8" wide, so they would both fit and both could be easily raised higher for access to the tank. That would be my dream setup but I am afraid that a chiller would be a necessity with that arrangement.

[Reefland]

PFO is the distributor of lighting for reef aquariums:
http://www.pfolighting.com/aqwebsite/aqhomepage.htm

HQI is High Quartz Iodide and is a type of metal halide bulb:
http://www.reefland.com/cgi-bin/foru...&threadid=7230

Hope this helps,
Scott Z.

[Ninong]

Yes, PFO is the name of a manufacturer, but Scott and I disagree on the definition of HQI.

Perry Jones says that HQI means High Quartz Iodide in the U.S. lighting industry but it means Mercury (Hg) Quartz Iodide every place else in the world. ;) (P.S. -- I just located an American source that calls it Mercury Quartz Iodide, too. See the first sentence at the top of page 194, The Reef Aquarium, Vol. 1, by J. Charles Delbeek and Julian Sprung: "In the Osram HQI (mercury quartz iodide) Powerstar, a glass lens must be incorporated in the fixture to protect the bulb from water splash, and to prevent the passage of too much ultraviolet light. These bulbs come in double or single end formats.") -- Hmmm... I guess that counts as an American and a Canadian reference.

If you will look in Fossa & Nilsen's Modern Coral Reef Aquarium series, you will see that they call every metal halide lamp HQI, including 5500K and 6500K lamps.

The European manufacturers use pulse start and the American manufacturers use probe start and all of the European DE (double end) lamps require pulse start (so-called HQI) ballasts. The new 250w 20,000K HQI mogul base lamp also requires an HQI ballast. The 400w 20,000K HQI mogul base lamp can be run on either ballast but it does better on an HQI ballast. An electronic ballast can be substituted for an HQI ballast, AFAIK.

I think the confusion over here lies in the fact that most hobbyists think that HQI refers to double-end lamps only.

[Reefland]

Boy, this hobby gets more confusing daily! Thanks for the detail Ninong.

So for distinguishing matters, I guess the best way to abbreviate what I call HQI is with DE (double end). But now I ask if some people refer to all metal halide bulbs as HQI, what is different about them that requires them to operate optimally on different ballasts (HQI ballast particularly). I understand what your saying about the pulse start and probe start ballasts (well I don't understand the difference but it is clear there is one), but what is different about the bulbs that require this different form of "start-up"?

[Ninong]

Scott,

My 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps, both Ushio/BLV and AB-Aqualine, are pulse start and require an ignitor ballast. All of the double socket HQI lamps are that way. The new 20,000K Radium HQI mogul base (E40 socket) also requires an ignitor ballast (so-called HQI ballast).

You will have to ask Perry about the manufacturing differences that make most of the European bulbs require ignitor ballasts. Also, I noticed in Perry's other thread that he told Scubadude he wouldn't make any distinction based on socket type.

Scubadude: "Would it be safe to say that the DE bulbs are more effecient than the SE bulbs, provided the proper ballast of course."

PerryinCA: "I wouldn't make any distinction based on the socket type. Ballast does make a huge difference though."

I don't agree with that at all. All of the tests that I have seen show more PAR for the double-end 250w lamps compared to the 250w mogul base lamps, even when comparing the lamps of the same manufacturer and same Kelvin rating. I believe it has to do with the differences in manufacture and the fact that you are literally "burning the candle at both ends.";; In fact, the 150w 10,000K HQI DE Ushio/BLV lamp has much more PAR than the 175w 10,000K Ushio/BLV mogul base lamp. The 250w 10,000K HQI DE Ushio lamp has more PAR than the 400w 10,000K Ushio mogul base lamp. So there is obviously something about double-end lamps that makes them more efficient than mogul base lamps. So to me PAR per watt is the true measure of efficiency. Maybe Perry is talking about your electric bill or something and not taking PAR into consideration.


P.S. -- Remember that stupid commercial about how many total bowls of cereal it would take to equal one bowl of Total? Well, it would take 12 of the 175w 5500K Venture mogul base lamps to equal my two 250w 10,000K HQI DE Ushio/BLV lamps according to testing done by Sanjay Joshi. It would take about 4-1/2 of the 175w 10,000K Ushio/BLV mogul base lamps, assuming they are run on the best ballast, to equal the PAR of my two 250w 10,000K HQI DE Ushio/BLV lamps. I don't have the figures right in front of me for the 12,000K ALS (Chinese) lamps but, if memory serves me, it would take about 10 of the 175w 12,000K ALS lamps or 6 of the 250w 12,000K ALS lamps to equal two Ushio/BLV 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps.

P.P.S. -- I just double-checked Sanjay's figures on his website: It would take 2.2 of the 400w 20,000K HQI Radium mogul base lamps to equal two 250w 10,000K HQI DE Ushio/BLV lamps and it would take, believe it or not, 2.15 of the 400w 10,000K Ushio/BLV mogul base lamps to equal two of the 250w 10,000K HQI DE lamps... same Kelvin rating, same manufacturer, yet the 250w outperforms the 400w, both run on HQI ballasts. And that's using the highest figure Sanjay gave for the 400w. If you ran it on a Magnetic ballast or a Blueline electronic ballast you would need more than 2.15 400's to equal 2 of the 250w DE's. To me that means that the DE lamps are more efficient! (Disclaimer: If you want to be really picky, go ahead and reduce the figures for the 250w DE lamp by about 10-15% because Sanjay ran it without a glass UV shield and you really need a shield for these lamps. Of course, virtually all of the so-called "hobby authors" recommend glass shields for the mogul base lamps, too, but most hobbyists run those without shields.)