[mx_tang]

I wanted to know what the differences between the Aquastarlight Future and the Aquaspacelight fixtures are, if at all possible. I read all the online information I could and it seems like the aquastarlight future has an optional moonlight whereas the aquaspacelights have optional PC lights. However, when I priced out the aquastarlights with moonlights, they were either the same price or less expensive than the aquaspacelights without PC's. To me, that just doesn't make much sense compounded by the fact that the pictures make them look identical. Okay, well the aquastarlight Future's look a little taller, but that's about it. BTW, I was looking at the 2 x 250 HQI DE models.

Ninong,

I read a past thread where you found and bought your Aquastarlight Future fixture for less than $600. Can I ask you got such a great price? This is where I found the article: aquastarlight?

In the Giesemann english site has opened thread, you said you paid less than $700. Can I assume that you still paid less than $600? Either way, that's a fantastic price.

Thanks in advance,
Mike

[Ninong]

Mike,

This is what I said: "I have the 2x250w Aquastarlight Future fixture and it cost me just a bit more than 600 bucks brand new." Aquastarlight ?

It actually cost me $617 delivered. That was a special deal that is no longer available. I got it directly from the manufacturer because I sent an email in German (thank you AltaVista's Babel) to the manufacturer to complain that the first online vendor I contacted was giving me a hard time, telling me that the only ones they had in stock did not have the moonlights in them. The German guys had one of their local employees call me to arrange the sale. It had to be ordered from Germany and then it was shipped to me from Texas. That was back when they were first starting to bring in the Aquaspacelights and the new Aquastarlight Future fixtures. It seems that some online vendors may have had a supply of the old style Aquastarlight fixtures that they were trying to push, if you know what I mean.

All of the Aquastarlight Future fixtures come with the 25w blue incandescent moonlight on a separate power cord. The 120 mm fixtures have one moonlight and the 180 mm fixtures have two. The Aquastarlight Future fixtures are 8" wide vs. 12" wide for the Aquaspacelight Fixtures. The PC actinics in the Aquaspacelight are on a separate power cord, too. The exact dimensions of the two fixtures are as follows:

Aquastarlight Future: 120 x 20 x 7.5 cm (16.0 kg/35.3 lbs)
Aquaspacelight w/PCs: 120 x 30 x 7.5 cm (15.6 kg/34.5 lbs)

Both fixtures come supplied with steel cables for suspension. The fixtures are rather heavy because the ballasts are inside the fixtures.

The 120mm Aquastarlight Future fixture is usually about $110 less than the 120mm Aquaspacelight fixture with PC actinics. The only reason I got the Aquastarlight Future fixture instead of the Aquaspacelight was because I already had a separate fixture with PC actinics.

This online vendor sells the Aquaspacelight 120mm 2x250w HQI MH + 2x24wPCs for $839.99 and the Aquastarlight Future 120mm 2x250w HQI MH + 25w moonlight for $729.99 -- http://www.customaquatic.com/customa...=lt&brandID=AB

[mx_tang]

Thanks Ninong,

I just wanted to tally up all the costs because I am going to be buying more than one fixture for the fishroom and any kind of savings on multiple fixtures would be great. I checked Just Phish and the aquaspacelight without PC's costs the same as the aquastarlight with the moonlight ($695). I think if I had to choose, I'd probably go with the aquaspacelight because it has a better spread and I won't be needing the moonlight for anything. Plus, I also have PC actinics and don't need the 28w PC's. BTW, the tanks are 48"x24"x16". Do you think that the 250w would be too intense for an all ricordea tank? I'm going to get the 250w for the clam and SPS tanks, but I haven't been able to see these fixtures in person.

[Ninong]

One nice thing about fixtures on suspension cables is that you can adjust the height of the fixture to accomodate anything.

[mx_tang]

That's very true about adjusting the height of the fixture to accomodate different types of corals. I love the fact that they're on wires and I can raise and lower them accordingly. It makes life so much easier. As far as your Aquastarlight Future, do you notice that there's less spread width-wise, since it's 4" narrower? On a 24" tank, I think it would be more appropriate to have a 12" canopy just to fill out the tank more evenly, but I'd like to hear your opionions about it.

[Ninong]

I was not aware that there was a difference between the two fixtures when it comes to light spread. According to the manufacturer, the minimum safe distance from the bottom of the fixture to the water's surface is 30 mm (12"). Not everyone follows that advice, but that's what they say.

[mx_tang]

Well, I'm just looking at the physics of the light itself. Based on the inverse square of light, 12" away from the water surface will be the same in the middle, but the reflectors for the aquaspacelights are 4" longer, or 2" per side. That should equate to more light distribution to the front and back of the tank. BTW, you're response time is phenomenal. Thanks for all your help!

[Ninong]

Originally posted by mx_tang
...the reflectors for the aquaspacelights are 4" longer, or 2" per side. That should equate to more light distribution to the front and back of the tank.

It might make a difference if both fixtures were positioned extremely close to the water's surface, but I don't believe it will make any difference at any reasonable height above the water's surface. The effective spread, according to the manufacturer, is 23" front-to-back for either fixture. Don't forget that if you raise any fixture high enough you can light the entire room but the only thing that matters is the intensity of the light and the intensity falls off a lot as you move away from directly under the center of the bulb.

[mx_tang]

I understand that the light intensity does fall off as you move away from the bulb. Have you ever taken any measurements with any lux meters at the 23" compared to anyone with an aquaspacelight? Or, do you know of anyone who has done testing with it? If the manufacturer claims that the effective light spread is the same, then where can I find the data to indicate such a conclusion?

If the aquastarlight future was the same price as the aquaspacelight without PC's, would you still have gone with the aquastarlight future?

[Ninong]

Originally posted by mx_tang:

I understand that the light intensity does fall off as you move away from the bulb. Have you ever taken any measurements with any lux meters at the 23" compared to anyone with an aquaspacelight? Or, do you know of anyone who has done testing with it?

No, I do not know of any comparison test results between specific fixtures. I know that Giesemann (at least in the German market) offers more than one reflector curve dimension in the same fixture (System 260 Moonlight) but the ones that are imported into the U.S. come with a standard one-size-fits-all reflector. This option would be useful for spreading out the light vs. concentrating it as compared to the same height above the tank.

If the manufacturer claims that the effective light spread is the same, then where can I find the data to indicate such a conclusion?

The figures for effective light spread were from the old Giesemann website (in German) before they updated it last year. According to them the effective light spread was 60 x 70 cm (23.6 x 27.6 inches). I have seen measurements of light intensity in practically every single hobby related book on the market and in several online hobby related articles dealing with aquarium lighting. If I come across one, I'll add it to this thread. Just remember that even if the manufacturer claims an effective light spread of 60 x 70 cm, the light intensity within that area varies significantly. The central 1/3 of that area will be more than twice as intense as the outer edges. (P.S. -- This is not exactly what I was looking for but it gives you a general idea. It is a comparison of the light spread of 4x110w VHO fluorescents vs. 4x96w PC fluorescents: http://www.coralreefecosystems.com/l...nical_data.htm )

If the aquastarlight future was the same price as the aquaspacelight without PC's, would you still have gone with the aquastarlight future?

The ideal fixture would include all three elements: Metal halides, fluorescent actinics and moonlight, all controlled by an onboard computer. AB makes such a fixture, the Aquasunlight Future, but it is quite expensive. Giesemann makes an even better fixture, the System 260 Moonlight, but it is extremely expensive. Choosing between the Aquastarlight Future and the Aquaspacelight, I personally believe that the Aquaspacelight is a better buy because you can always add a separate moonlight. I got the Aquastarlight Future because I already had actinics in another fixture.

[mx_tang]

I'm really not too impressed with the PC's or the moonlight on the AB fixtures, so I'm using the canopies strictly for the MH's. I also think the Aquaspacelights are better for my application, and if the prices were the same. So Aquamedic/Aqualine Buschke sold you the fixture direct from their distribution site in Texas, right? I suppose they only do that for special/extenuating circumstances. I'm getting some quotes from different vendors, but it looks these fixtures seem pretty solid from the feedback that I've seen on the web and on this BB.

The only Giesemann dealer that I know of is Roger Vitko from Aquatek in Texas. I do love the fixtures, but I don't think it would be economical for me to get multiple Giesemann lights opposed to AB Aquaspacelights. My LFS carries them, but I haven't had a chance for them to price them out, since they're a special order item.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by mx_tang:

So Aquamedic/Aqualine Buschke sold you the fixture direct from their distribution site in Texas, right? I suppose they only do that for special/extenuating circumstances.

It was a one time thing, they can't do it again.

The only Giesemann dealer that I know of is Roger Vitko from Aquatek in Texas.

Yes, one of the Reefland members purchased his Giesemann System 260 Moonlight fixture through Roger. One of the LFS that sponsors Reefs.org also carries them: Inland Reef Aquaria in Nashua, NH: http://www.inlandreef.net/system230plus.html

I do love the fixtures, but I don't think it would be economical for me to get multiple Giesemann lights opposed to AB Aquaspacelights.

Giesemann makes the relatively inexpensive Nova II fixtures and the very expensive System 400 Plus fixtures. Both of those accomodate a single metal halide lamp of anywhere from 150w & 250w for the Nova II's to 400w and 1000w for the System 400 Plus, but they also make a variety of multi-lamp fixtures, such as the System 230 and the System 260 fixtures. The System 230 Plus fixtures are similar to the Aquaspacelight fixtures. The System 260 Moonlight fixtures are extremely nice but they cost about 2.5 to 3 times as much as an Aquaspacelight of the same size. Giesemann uses remote ballasts, Aqua-Medic's ballasts are onboard. Giesemann's System 260 Moonlight fixture is completely computerized with its own onboard computer that controls all three lighting functions to duplicate natural conditions at any location on Earth.

[mx_tang]

Thanks Ninong,

I checked out Inland Aquatics a while back and only saw prices on 2 fixtures. I have seen the 230 series at my LFS and those things look really sharp. What's the difference between the 230 eco and 230 plus? Also, I had someone buy a Nova II. I think he said the 250w version was $400. If that's the case, I'd rather just get one fixture. Plus, I like the streamlined look of the Giesemann 230 eco/plus and the Aquaspacelights/Aquastarlights. In fact, I'm leaning towards the Giesemann because they carry it in Ocean Blue, which is the exact same color as my tanks. Do you happen to have any prices for the 48" 2x250w Giesemann 230's btw?

[Ninong]

The System 230 Plus includes the PC actinics, the regular System 230 has the metal halides only: http://www.giesemann.de/GB_230.html

The "eco" stands for "economy." It is intended as a less expensive alternative to their System 260 Moonlight fixture.

I would hate to post prices for any of the Giesemann fixtures in this thread because they are not as widely advertized as Aqua-Medic fixtures and the prices that I have seen for them has varied significantly from one vendor to the next. You could always ask Giesemann for a list of their U.S. dealers and then do your own comparison shopping. At the time I was considering Giesemann, they had just set up a distributor in N.Y. and he was in the process of signing up dealers. At that time Roger Vitko was doing his own thing directly with the guys in Germany.

You will notice that Giesemann has updated their website to include an English language version, so it's a lot easier to get around than it was a couple of years ago when it was only in German.

[mx_tang]

Okay, no problem. I'll look into the pricing between different vendors. I read a past thread about Giesemann fixtures, or at least the ones sold by Dr. Foster & Smith for which did not include the bulbs. In general, does Giesemann sell the bulbs with their fixtures or not? I was talking to someone earlier today who said that the new 230 eco didn't not include any MH bulbs. That just seemed strange to me. And if they're already $635 for the 2x150w, then I'd have to add the cost of 2 bulbs to the total cost. That would definitely make the Aquastarlight a much better buy for me coming in at $575 for the 2x150w. BTW, I'd like 250's, but could only find the price for the 150's unfortunately.

[Ninong]

I realize that PetWarehouse (now called Drs. Foster & Smith) priced their Giesemann fixtures without the bulbs but Aquatek, when they operated an online website, priced them with the bulbs included. It does seem strange to price fixtures like that without the necessary bulbs.

When I first contacted Giesemann in Germany two years ago, they gave my name and phone number to their representative in N.Y. He quoted me list price for their System 260 Moonlight fixture. At that time it was only available in the U.S. in one size (120cm) and one color (Ozeanblau) and the quoted price was above $3000 but it came supplied with BLV 250w HQI DE lamps, 30w Philips normal output fluorescent actinics and the 5w/12v moonlight. We talked on the phone for about 30 minutes (he called me ) and I was completely sold on that fixture until I heard the price. Giesemann makes the better fixtures but their prices in this country are a bit steep. I saw one advertized on a Dutch online vendor's website for about half of the U.S. price but it was a European version and not compatible with our electrical supply. I'm not sure if an adapter, or whatever, would have solved that problem or not.

The Giesemann System 230eco Plus is a new design in response to Aqua-Medic's Aquaspacelight.

[tendar]

Ninong
I am looking to get one of these with 2x150's.
In your opinion would the 48" fixture with 2x150's suplemented with 4-4' vho be good for a 60x30x24 with just a couple of sps 2-4 on the top under lights and the rest of the tank lps and sofites?

Thanks
Gregg

[Ninong]

Gregg,

That's a matter of personal choice. Yes, you could get by with that lighting setup if that is your preference.

[mx_tang]

Gregg and Ninong,

I just got a hold of a Giesemann and AB vendor and I've got some great pricing. I won't put them in this thread, but I can PM them to you for further advise.

Needless to say, here's what I came up with


2x250w Giesemann Eco 230 w/OUT shipping = 2x250w Aquaspacelight w/OUT PC's shipped = 2x250w Aquastarlight w/ Moonlight shipped

2x250w Giesemann Eco 230 w/ Electronic Ballast = $100 extra

2x250w 260 Moonlight w/ 2x36w PC's = twice the price of the Giesemann Eco 230w Electronic Ballast shipped

2x150w Aquaspacelight w/ Electronic ballast = $100 less than 2x250w magnetic version

As far as a comparison, you mentioned the 230 plus would be comparable to the Aquaspacelights, but not the 230 eco, right? If that's the case, then I think the Aquaspacelights are the way to go.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by mx_tang:

As far as a comparison, you mentioned the 230 plus would be comparable to the Aquaspacelights, but not the 230 eco, right? If that's the case, then I think the Aquaspacelights are the way to go.

I should have been more specific. The System 230 eco would be equal to the Aquaspacelight without optional PC actinics. The System 230 eco Plus would be equal to the Aquaspacelight with PC actinics. The Aquaspacelight is almost always ordered with optional PC actinics.

I believe the 4-ft Giesemann System 260 Moonlight comes with 3-ft long, 30w, normal output Philips "03" actinic fluorescents, not PC's.

Interesting that Giesemann is quoting a choice of different ballasts on some of their fixtures now. When I talked to their rep two years ago, the System 260 Moonlight came with electronic ballasts only. BTW, I have seen the 4-ft System 260 Moonlight as cheap as $2300 in the U.S. and as cheap as US$1500 in Europe (European version) within the past year, which is a lot cheaper than it was being quoted two years ago.