Leebca, you helped me before

[r0bin]

Hi Leebca, I had talked to you previously about my lemon peel angle fish have a dislodged barb. You had told me to watch for infection and that it would take a long time to heal. What are the signs of infection. I was wondering b/c the area around the barb has deteriated some, but I am not sure if its just because the fish is actively swimming as usual. The fish eats, swims, and seems perfectly normal, but the area affected seems larger now, so to speak.

Thanks for your help

Respectfully, r0bin

[leebca]

I remember you r0bin. Sorry for the inconvenience of having to track me down.

It isn't clear what you mean by 'deteriorating.' If I could see an up-close clear photo of the area and a slightly not-so-close photo, I could probably identify what (if anything) is going on.

An infected area on the surface of the fish can have a few different characteristics. The most common is a whitish area. This can lead to reddish areas (like the human inflammatory response). This then goes on to a sore or lesion.

Another group of symptoms would be the 'rotting' of flesh. Hence the term 'fin rot.' The fin or flesh degrades from anything as simple as a frayed look to something more serious like flesh/scales coming off or 'rotting away.'

I could be more certain if I can see what you're seeing, unless the above helps you.

The treatment would be to move the fish to a hospital tank and treat with an antibiotic. So, while we exchange posts, you might want to get the hospital tank setup and going.

You'll want to double check that you're providing the best nutrients possible (see my updated post):
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

In addition, no matter what is going on, you need to secure some beta glucan as soon as possible, unless you have some around already. It is available in a (human) health food store and is the same powder that humans take to improve their immune system. It has the same affect on fish.

I hope the above is helpful.

[r0bin]

How do I dose the beta glucan, how much and how often and by what means. At this point that seems the route to go. It would be very hard to catch this fish and would disrupt the whole tank. I don't object to that to save a fish life but at this time not sure that needs to be done. IO can try to get a pic. but he darts so quickly and my camera isn't the best quality. By deteriating I mean the area all around the barb looks dark yellow, that dark yellow area has gotten larger. There is no redness or white color at all.

[leebca]

The 'dark yellow' description for a fish that is yellow to begin with is a genuine concern r0bin.

The beta glucan will help the fish to fend off a light infection together with the proper nutrients (vitamins, fats, etc.). If the fish isn't satisfied by having all the other nutrients it needs (including extra vitamins and fats) the beta glucan won't work. In other words the fish might still need help.

What about the blue markings on the fish? Are they bright blue and clearly visible around the gill and dorsal areas? If there is any slip or paling of this blue trim, the fish is not getting its proper nutrients or not enough of them. I would fear it couldn't fend off an infection at this point in time and needs your intervention.

Beta glucan is fed to the fish at 0.02% of its body weight. (This is about 20mg beta glucan per 100g of fish weight). It doesn't take much. And more doesn't help. Estimate the weight of your fish. Estimate the amount of food it eats. Then make sure the beta glucan is in a serving in the right quantity. You can feed this amount daily, but for not much longer than a couple of weeks. As noted above, it won't help unless the fish is getting extra vitamins, fats, and all the other nutrients it needs.

The most effective form of Beta 1,3-D glucan is extracted from Baker’s yeast or saccharomyce cerevisiae. Buy very small capsules of the powder so you can better control the quantity you need.

Good luck!

[r0bin]

I very much appreciate your help. This fish coloration is very vibrant and he is very healthly looking. Just around the barb is the dark yellow discoloration.

[r0bin]

Furthermore I am supplementing his food with zoe.

[r0bin]

I have decided to quarantine and medicate my lemonpeel. What do I need to medicate with? I have a 10 gal quarantine tank set up, thats all I had room for. Is that ok?

[leebca]

I don't remember the size of your fish, but the 10 will probably be okay.

If you've diagnosed the condition as a bacterial infection, I would start the treatment with Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish. The first dose should be doubled from what it says on the medication instructions.

This treatment will attack one group (Gram Negative) bacteria. You should see some improvement near the end of the 5-day treatment. If there is definitely no improvement, then we'll switch antibiotics.

Continue to feed it vitamins and extra fats supplements along with the beta glucan. Watch water quality, especially pH, ammonia and nitrite.

[r0bin]

Will the maracyn affect my PH level if so how do I maintain it without sudden drops and increases. I have never really had to maintain ph before b/c I have not had a problem. I know it needs to reamin constant, what should I use?

[leebca]

The antibiotic treatment with Maracyn won't have any noticeable affect on pH.

Using a smaller volume tank during treatment has a tendency to shift pH (down) and temperature (up or down) rather suddenly as the fish pollutes the water and air conditions in the room change.

You are correct in thinking that a steady pH is the goal. For this fish you'd like to have a pH of 8.3 to 8.4 and holding it steady in that range.

Generally, you'll be fighting to keep the pH up. Make sure the QT is in a well ventilated room. Excess carbon dioxide in the room air will push the pH down. But if the tank has good gas exchange with fresh air, you don't have to worry about this effect.

You can raise pH gently by using food grade baking soda (Sodium bicarbonate) such as Arm & Hammer brand. You can raise pH gently using pH+ additives for saltwater aquariums (from your LFS). You can also use stronger pH raising chemicals like Sodium carbonate, etc. Make no sudden adjustments in pH. If it needs to be raised to put it back into the above range, raise it very slowly.

In general, you don't want to raise pH anymore than about 0.15 pH units per day.

pH control, even in a fish only tank is very important. Some fish will stop eating if their pH changes too much. Other fish can suffer terrible conditions (including bacterial infections) if they are at the wrong pH for an extended time. pH should be something you check daily.

[r0bin]

I have always had a low end ph prob. Its always about 7.8. Even right after I make my instant ocean up, its 7.8. Doesnt matter if I open a door to let air in, lid on or off tank its always pretty , much the same. Since I dont want it to jump around I just leave it be. I have heard that adding baking soda will raise it but it will affect you akalinity also. Is it normal to have to add an additive everyday to maintain your ph at about 8.2-8.4. If so what should I use? Do other people have to add ph buffer everyday? I just dont like adding much to my tank thats why I never have. But as I get more sensitive fish I am afraid this may be a problem.

[leebca]

This is not good news.

But as I get more sensitive fish I am afraid this may be a problem.

It already is a problem.

This may help explain your fish's inability to start the healing process and instead, slipping backwards.

Many fishes are sensitive to pH. Some aren't. I don't recall if you mentioned having any tangs or rabbitfishes. Tangs and rabbitfishes are perhaps the two groups of fishes that need high-end pH values (8.4) the most, of our common marine fishes. Many angelfishes fall into this category too. Some butterflies must have high-end pH water to do their best. Damsels are sort of at the other end of the scale. They can handle the pH you have without much difficulty.

It's time to sort out why your make-up water has such a low pH. Are you making it up at the 'normal' salinity? If you make up saltwater at a low salinity, the salt mix buffering ability is often compromised. So, try a batch made up to the salinity recommended by the salt mix manufacturer.

Next, check your source water. What is the pH of the water you're using to make up the salt mix?

I've known freshly made saltwater to come in as low as 8.1 but yours should never come in at 7.8 unless something is wrong. Now is as good of time as any to resolve this issue.

Additives to raise pH often do affect alkalinity. Alkalinity and pH are related. It's a complex relationship which you probably don't want to know about. However, in order to keep a steady pH your alkalinity has to be such that it can handle the things that try to change the pH. In other words, your alkalinity is operating like a buffer to hold the pH steady. But, you want the alkalinity at such a level that it will hold the pH at the 8.3 to 8.4 where you want it to be.

I'd recommend you post a new thread in the Reef or Saltwater Fish only aquarium Forum to obtain help to control the pH. I'm more interested in the health of your fish and know that you must bring the pH up and hold it steady if you want to keep saltwater fish in your aquarium.

I'll bet some/all of your fish concerns will go away once the fishes are being proper nutrition and a proper environment (e.g., the right pH).

[r0bin]

This is the 4th day of antibiotic. Marlin, looks some better but not much. Some of the redness has gone away though. I was thinking I would do a second treatment of antibiotics, b/c the instructions say I can. Some of his blue areas look a little faded, I am not being able to feed him quite like I do in the 75 b/c of water quality issues. What is you opinion at this point?

Furthermore, I will say I am pleased with my and his progress. I am just happy he is still alive, I was able to catch him and quarantine. This are not things I normally do. Again I appreciate YOUR help!!! Thanks

ps I am slowly raising the ph in the quarantine with a ph buffer, though its not where it should be yet. Also, I am slowly raising in my main tank with baking soda.

[leebca]

Make sure you're pumping the vitamins to your fish. You should be adding either a vitamin supplement or a fat supplement to every feeding, along with the beta glucan.

Usually, the fish will respond to the antibiotic in about 3-4 days. You can do a second treatment without concern.

I think what will help the most will be the proper water quality at the right pH, and the right feeds. Keep it going to raise the pH slowly. You don't want your pet to go into shock from a a big pH swing. Remember, it has gotten used to the wrong pH, and now you want it to get reacquainted with its proper pH.

I think under the circumstances, it's going well. Remember the stress you're under is no less than your fish's stress. I find that people who REALLY care are the best aquarists.

You're more than welcome.

[r0bin]

[r0bin]

[r0bin]

[r0bin]

leebca


I know this pictures are terrible, but I am franic. I came home today to find a larger hole in marlins tail and its actually split now. I thought he was getting better. The red splotches on his body are gone so I thought the bacterial infection was better but now I am not sure. I cam home today to find his dorsal fin split and bloody looking. He still eats well, swims well and eyes are clear. YOu can at least see in the first pic, his tail actually has a v in it now where it split all the way. Its black and bloody looking. Where do I go from here? help!!!

[leebca]

The fish is still under treatment with Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish?

If so, then begin treatment with Maracyn One for Saltwater fish at the same time finishing the treatment with Two.

When you begin treating with Maracyn One, the biological filter will most likely fail/die off. You need to be prepared to do daily or twice daily large water changes. You need to check water quality no less than two or three times a day (especially 1 hour after feeding the fish). Watch pH, ammonia, and nitrites very closely. I would suggest you rely on test kits rather than dip sticks. You want a pH between 8.3 and 8.4, and undetectable readings of ammonia and nitrite by test kits.

Between the Two and the One, almost all bacteria will be killed in the QT water system.

The two most likely causes for what you described are water quality and microbial. Of the microbial group, we're assuming bacteria for the time being.

On another prong of our attack, switch vitamins to Vita-Chem. Add Vita-Chem to each feeding AND to the water. Follow bottle directions. Purchase a fat supplement to add to the food, also (e.g., Zoecon, Selcon, etc.).

[r0bin]

Lee

I am dosing with the Maracyn now and vita chem. Everyday marlins tail deteriates more. I feel like we are running out if time. Is it possible this could be a parasite or something? I dont know what else to try. The water quality in the quarantine tank is pretty much perfect, including the ph.