Disaster - my first post here

[baobao]

Lee,
Great to see you hear. You are an invaluable resource!
I took a very painful lesson this weekend that took a bite out of my pocketbook - I added a burgess butterfly that appeared ok after about two weeks of observation. After about three days, I saw two fish dead. I promptly suspected possibility of velvet, so I removed all rock that day and medicated with cupramine, attempted to treat the infected fish with freshwater dips and formalin. Nevertheless, I lost all fish.

My hunch is that tank may have been attacked by margine velvet, but could it have been brook? I don't want this to ever happen to me again so from now on, I'll always keep some cupramine in my system( since I'm always adding items, moving things around), and keep all the rock in a system with no fish. Adding the cupramine still did not prevent some seemingly strong fish to avoid death even though i medicated very early? how can i tell what attacked tank?

when i did a freshwater dip(for about 5 - 10 minutes), a bunch of stringy white stuff came off the fish. does that help tell whether problem was brook or velvet? both are highly virulent.

lessons: always quarantine, don't trust uv sterilizer to ward off disaster, and always keep some cupramine in system.

any advice on how i could have treated the fish once i had hunch of velvet or brook? i tried freshwater dips, formalin dips, and then medicated the tank with cupramine , but it did not work.

this is the type of experience that leads me to question whether i should exit hobby.

[leebca]

Very sorry to hear of your loss. It is horrible!

Glad to see you here baobao!

There's much to be said for a quarantine process, but there are few shortcuts in this hobby. A proper quarantine process requires that marine fish spend no less than 6 weeks in quarantine. AND, that quarantine should be yours, not at your friend's aquarium, the LFS's aquarium, etc.

I'm not in favor of running copper continuously in a home display tank. It is bad enough that wholesalers and most LFSs run copper. For these businesses, it is a matter of what happens first: the fish gets sold (looking healthy) or dies from the treatment.

Copper is a poison and continuous exposure to it has an accumulative effect on the fish. If you've ever quarantined a Clown Tang (CT) you'll notice that right after adding Cupramine in the correct dosage, the CT will begin flashing (scratching). It is a good, first-hand lesson that copper is a poison and irritant to the fish. (In fact if your LFS says they don't run copper in their tanks and their CT is flashing. . .)

I know you removed the live rock before you treated, but by using copper on a routine basis, live rock turns to base rock, invertebrates in the sand will die, and the biological filter may slip into shock. As far as I know, your fish may have died from nitrite or ammonia poisoning once you added the copper and stopped the biological activity. The continuous supply of copper in a display means the display will never have such interesting and beneficial critters. What organisms will be eating the detritus and left over foods?

My recommendation is to quarantine fish and don't let the disease into the display aquarium. If disease does show up, move the fish to a hospital tank for treatment.

Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) does kill that quickly. Although Brooklynella can also kill quickly, it usually drags out on a healthy, minimally stressed fish. So, if the fish in the display were not healthy, stressed, or were not receiving their needed nutrients (see below reference) then they were susceptible to fast death from Brooklynella.
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

Imagine the above scenario if the display has a continuous supply of copper. . .The fish will always be of sub-normal health because they are being poisoned slowly. Introduce any fish with a disease like Brooklynella and they will likely perish quickly from their sub-healthy state.

If the display tank fishes are/were healthy with little stress in the best water quality, they should slow down Brooklynella and make the disease progress slowly. They would still need treatment, but the disease would not likely move on to their demise that quickly.

One identification process for Marine Velvet, is to look at the bath water after the freshwater dip. There would be seen tiny specks of the Marine Velvet organism. If you didn't see this (assuming you looked for these specks) then it most likely wasn't Marine Velvet.

The stringy stuff you wrote you did see is more than likely the mucous membrane/coating on the fish being 'sluffed' off. This is a sign of Brooklynella (and a few other conditions, including a reaction to a bad freshwater bath, copper overdosing, and less than good display tank water quality).

any advice on how i could have treated the fish once i had hunch of velvet or brook?

Formalin is the best treatment for Brooklynella.

Although a freshwater dip can knock off some of the Marine Velvet parasites, it doesn't cure the fish of this disease. A copper treatment is the most efficient treatment for Marine Velvet. Multiple, 'uncuring' dips in freshwater is stressful for the fish in the long run.

However there's much I don't know about what you did. For instance I don't know if you performed the formalin treatment 'properly' or if you performed the freshwater dip 'properly.' I don't know if you performed the copper treatment 'properly.'

A proper Cupramine treatment requires two or three copper concentration measurements every day using the Seachem Copper Test Kit or the Salifert Copper Test Kit. I'd want to know the copper concentration according to the test results to say if the copper treatment was optimal.

The preferred freshwater dip I like, is the one I posted:
Freshwater Dip for Marine Fishes

The preferred formalin treatment I like is the one in this article:
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/...nd_or_foe.html

You are correct to have on hand Cupramine if you want to keep marine fishes. I've outlined a minimal medicine chest for keeping marine fishes:
Stocking the Marine Fish Medicine Cabinet

Hang in there! Establish a tried and true strategy for your fish keeping. Given the patience it takes, I think you'll find it a rewarding experience in the long run.

I'm glad to reply to any post in this new Reefland Forum. Ask if you have questions at any time baobao. And again: WELCOME!

[baobao]

First, thanks for your response. In light of information you provided, I think the fish that died had a combination of both Amyloodinium and Brooklynellosis.

Here are the telltales:
1) The fish died very quickly (you pointed out that Brook will not kill that virulently assuming water quality ok/ fish immune system not impaired - the fish were eating very well and water quality was ok, but degeneration was very swift)
2) The dots I saw on the fish were hard to see, but upon looking carefully they looked like very fine sugar dots, rather than the distinct salt charateristic of ich. I conducted a FW dip in a clear glass container so that I could monitor any precipitation - i noticed small dots in the water and on the surface; HOWEVER, I also saw stringy things being sluffed off. ( Perhaps both vevlet and Brook?)

Is it normal for velvet to be so virulent that even if you detect it so much as a half day late and treat with copper that you will have total wipeout as I had?

So the takeways from the above is that velvet kills very quickly, but with brook will attack slowly and attack weaker fish?

I know you don't advocate continuous copper use - however, after my painful experience, i think it is important to use it on a prophylactic basis at least during the beginning? i lost a lot of very expensive fish probably because I introduced that one extra fish without sufficiently disciplined quarantine. If my tank had copper(at the proper level and good water quality), this catastrophe (assuming it was the pathological introduction of MV) would have been avoided?

Takeaway: While I continuously add fish to this tank, I need to keep 0.3-0.6ppm Cupramine( Just in Case). Once I no longer intend to move/add fish, then I will remove copper via carbon, and add live rock.

DO YOU AGREE?

[leebca]

Hi guy!

That the fish had both is not impossible. Not likely, but definitely possible.

Marine Velvet (MV) is very insidious. I have lost fish quickly. Literally. . .By the time I figured out they had Marine Velvet they were beyond the point of no return.

The spots of MV are very small. MV usually begins in the gills. About the only warning an aquarist gets is that the fish is breathing much faster than normal. Next the fish won't eat -- often just 'staring off into space.' Next the aquarist may or may not see the spots or what appears to be a sheen on the surface/side of the fish. Then the fish dies. These steps I just mentioned can all be accomplished in 36 hours! How can any aquarist react that quickly?

The only margin the aquarist has is to follow a strict nutritional regime for their fish if the aquarist is not going to use a quarantine system:
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition
This can give you some time because the fish is 'super' healthy. There is time for you to see labored breathing and the fish not eating. At that point in time, the aquarist has to guess what's happening -- and there isn't much time to guess.

MV can transmit to another fish before you even notice the infected fish is breathing hard. So a whole tankful of fish are healthy and happy today, and dead in as little as 48 hours. I'm amazed at the number of people who don't use a quarantine system for fish. (Did you fill out the Quarantine Poll in this Forum? Wish you would. I want to collect info. It's an anonymous poll).

Like you said, the only thing you can do is protect the fish that are healthy by diligently using a quarantine process for new arrivals.

Brooklynella tends to attack the weaker fish. You should be aware that very early on Brooklynella was thought to be caused by the fish getting poor nutrition! How naive we were. But it points out how anecdotal information was interpreted -- undernourished fish got Brooklynella, so Brooklynella can be cured by feeding the fish the right foods. Not!

We know it's an organism that causes Brooklynella. We also know that anemonefish are so prone to getting this disease that it is worth treating all newly acquired anemonefish for Brooklynella whether the aquarist thinks the fish has it or not or 'looks' healthy. But there is still an underlying truth to the anecdotal information -- unhealthy fish can easily get it; healthy fish can get it; super healthy fish can significantly slow it down and if lucky, fend it off.

I would compare how you are providing nutrition to your fish to the above reference. Even an eating fish, even a fat fish, even a fish that eats ravenously, doesn't mean it is a healthy fish. ;;

There is still the concern about continuous use of copper regarding your biological filter. If you will be using copper treatment as a prophylactic, then I would expect:
1) Bare bottom tank (or pure silica substrate only);
2) No live rock
3) No carbonates of any sort (decorations, any kinds of rock, etc.)
4) Daily copper tests
5) Maintaining copper concentration in the zone regardless of water changes, etc.
6) Strict watch on pH (twice a day checks or continuous by pH meter)

You're a bright person and should be aware of the bigger picture. Although you might run copper in your tank, copper only treats two conditions. Fish can be acquired with dozens of other conditions that copper won't treat. You asked an important question:

If my tank had copper(at the proper level and good water quality), this catastrophe (assuming it was the pathological introduction of MV) would have been avoided?

No. In your specific case, the Brooklynella would have killed them very quickly because the copper is a poison and your fish are significantly stressed and not at their peak health while bathed in poison.

You can't beat Mother Nature. The best you can do is a tie and go back to your corner.

DO YOU AGREE?

No. For the above reason that copper doesn't cure nor stop everything you have to worry about, loosing your emotional and time and money investment. What you seem to have is a salty copper solution with fish in it. This is not marine husbandry IMO.

Please know that I'm neither upset or disapproving. Just answering your good questions and expressing an opinion. I see and know where you're coming from. It's good to be thinking out of the box.

Have you read this recent post?
Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

Hang in there!

[baobao]

Lee, This hobby is tough!!!!!!

The reason I have suggested prophylactic use of copper (only temporarily) is because IF the fish has velvet, then (as I discovered after losing $$$$$$$$s in this incident) odds are significantly against me.

That being said, you've raised a some very good points that makes me scratch my head, begging for an antidote -

Fish can be acquired with dozens of other conditions that copper won't treat. In your specific case, the Brooklynella would have killed them very quickly because the copper is a poison and your fish are significantly stressed and not at their peak health while bathed in poison.

I realize that copper is ineffective against flukes ( which is why I guess you espouse the FW dip during the acclimation process) and against Brooklynellosis, but wouldn't the most likely pathogens harbored by the fish be either MV or MI? Also, I've heard that unless fish is anemonefish, it is unlikely to harbor Brook.

The problem that I have is that I don't have sufficiently large quarantine tanks for some incoming specimens, and as you concur, velvet attacks very quickly.

I totally agree with you that copper is detrimental over the long haul, but I just want some sort of insurance policy for a short period while there is heavy transit among my tanks. Otherwise, I feel like I'm playing Russian roulette where one incident of MV is analogous to having SARs/HIV in a closed environment!

[leebca]

I will say that some Genus of fishes are prone to carrying MI and/or MV but it's a stretch to include all 6500 marine fishes in that grouping. Yes, anemonefish are prone to have Brooklynella, but they don't have exclusivity to this disease. The perspective can go both ways.

Marine fish would have some specific protection against MI and MV if copper is run temporarily. So long as it's understood what the long term negative impact it has on the fish (increased stress, reduced longevity, and possible injury/death) and the tank (copper stuck to glass, dead inverts, no live rock, etc.).

You see I read from a part of your post that: "You're in a hurry." That isn't a part of the success formula for this hobby. People should stock slowly to give the tank microbial inhabitants a chance to adjust. This makes it perfectly reasonable to let the tank mature slowly, acquire fish slowly, quarantine fish slowly, stock the tank slowly, etc., etc.

Understand that I'm against people acquiring fishes then immediately putting them into a quarantine for copper treatment. I can think of only one exception to this, like anemonefish need treatment for Brook, so does the tang Genus Acanthurus need treatment for MI & MV. But if copper meds are used as a routine and the fish has another ailment, the aquarist is faced with stressing the new arrival with the copper treatment AND now having to heap on the new arrival another stress/treatment for the real condition it has.