[baobao]

Lee,

Formalin Dips

What do you think about prophylactic formalin dips as part of the acclimation process? You've mentioned that you conduct freshwater dips(FW) as standard part of your acclimation process. I know this is highly effective against diseases such as flukes that copper cannot eradicate, but it won't resolve Brooklynellosis? Do you forgo the formalin dip to minimize the stress on the fish?(The FW dip and transportation are stressful enough). Or do you forgo it because Brookly. is for the most part specific to anemonefishes? Or perhaps because I get the impression that should have fish show symptoms of Brookly., you have sufficient time to salvage it with formalin dips so prophylactic formalin dip is not necessary?

Accclimate fish to water or water to fish?

Also, should fish have been in transport over long distance/time, what is your opinion of acclimation the water to the fish? The Ph of the water in bag is usually very low upon arrival, and the differential could highly stress the fish? So, what do you think about lowering the PH of the incoming tank to the bag and just cutting bag, conducting the freshwater dip in PH reduced water, and then dropping it in the PH reduced tank? (Unfortunately, this procedure does not work for those who may have cupramine in the tank, since reducing the PH would cause the copper to precipitate out?)

[leebca]

The formalin dip is very stressful to the fish. It really isn't just a dip. A proper treatment for external parasites requires multiple dips over a series of days. This I would not do unless I knew the fish to require this. But since most anemonefish are likely to bring with them Brooklynella, it is worth doing this multiple dip procedure after the fish has settled in to the quarantine tank.

Acclimating the water to the fish is something easily accomplished if the aquarist is using a quarantine process.

In the case of a lowered pH in the shipping bag, there are concerns about raising the pH in the bag. Once the pH rises, the 'dangerous' kind of ammonia is released to the fish and they are thus exposed to ammonia levels beyond their normal endurance. On the other hand is the problem that the fish is not supposed to be at a low pH -- that the low pH is in of itself harmful.

6 of one, half-a-dozen of the other. There doesn't seem to be a win-win situation. You want to get the fish to the right pH, but you don't want to pH shock the fish and you don't want to release the ammonia that is in the water.

My opinion is to split the difference. Set the QT tank water pH higher than the bag water, but no less than 7.8 pH and no higher than 8.4 pH. Set the QT water specific gravity to the water in the bag. Slowly (4+ hours) raise the pH in the bag water after it is at QT water temperature, by doing small QT tank water additions. Place the fish in the QT when its water pH matches closely to the QT water and continue to raise the pH in the QT water to the fish's preferred pH (this last part takes two or three days).

The biological filter had better be solid and reliable before performing this process since the ammonia being released will be the ammonia built up in the bag water and the ammonia newly released by the fish.

Extra equipment, like a portable pH meter (like the Hanna field meter) would be needed.

[baobao]

Could you clarify -

"My opinion is to split the difference. Set the QT tank water pH higher than the bag water, but no less than 7.8 pH and no higher than 8.4 pH. Set the QT water specific gravity to the water in the bag. Slowly (4+ hours) raise the pH in the bag water after it is at QT water temperature, by doing small QT tank water additions. Place the fish in the QT when its water pH matches closely to the QT water and continue to raise the pH in the QT water to the fish's preferred pH (this last part takes two or three days).

The biological filter had better be solid and reliable before performing this process since the ammonia being released will be the ammonia built up in the bag water and the ammonia newly released by the fish."

Are you suggesting to empty the water from bag into the QT? I always thought the water in bag must be discarded because of the very high ammonia level.

[leebca]

Oh Oh! I thought I was clear. Anything in particular you need more info on?

I don't believe in netting a fish from its transportation bag. I also don't have a concern about bag water getting into a QT (remember I wrote a QT.

Look at a bigger picture. If the QT water is at the same pH as the bag water, then the fish does not get exposed to or hit with a sudden release of ammonia. Instead, 1) bag water gets diluted by QT water, and 2) ammonia added to QT is what the biological filter is there for. As you slowly raise the pH in the QT, the non-harmful ammonia converts to deadly ammonia and then the biological filter takes over. No worse than waste coming out of the fish itself.

You understand there are two kinds of ammonia in the transportation bag water? One is the dangerous, lethal kind, the other is in a chemical state of being relatively harmless to the fish. As pH goes up from having been low, the harmless becomes deadly. At the time it goes up, the fish should be in its QT and the ammonia is being taken care of by the reliable bio-filter of the QT.

The full acclimation procedure is to fill the bag with QT water over time. Then empty half the bag. Then fill the bag again. You pour off half of that (now the bag water is less than 1/4 of the original water) and let the fish swim out of that bag, submerged into the QT.

Or. . .If you're performing an immediate freshwater dip, the fish enters that procedure (and no bag water gets to the QT water).

[baobao]

FW Dips
I had success in incorporating a prophylactic 30 minute(!) FW dip w/ Methl. Blue using procedure you espoused. Suprisingly, fish were very calm throughout process.(Only issue is using 12 drops/gallon water got so blue that I couldn't even see the fish - I used a 5 gallon bucket, air pump, and added three fish together for the dip. At the end of the dip, I saw some items on water surface - perhaps velvet/ich trophants?) Not sure if I'd have the boldness to conduct this long dip for expensive exotic fish, but I'm converting to a proponent of your method!

Formalin Dips
Since formalin dips are stressful, would you ever conduct it as prophylactic measure (other than for clownfishes)? I've heard that some fish stores deploy such dips prophylactically.

[leebca]

Thanks baobao. Glad you had success. You can back off (not much though) on the MB to 10 drops per gallon. I hope you didn't put all fish through at the same time. It is much better for fish to be alone during this process. So I hope you put them through one at a time, at the time.

No on the Formalin. Shame on those stores.

[baobao]

So how do you recommend use of formalin? I think you use formalin for clownfishes and when fish shows Brook. - any other instance?

A guy who runs an exotic fish store told me that about once a week, he'll dose his tanks(about 3000 gallons, w/ cupramine, no live rock) with some formalin. I was suprised because seachem indicates formalin breaks down cupramine into toxic Cu+? According to him, the key, though, is formulating the cupramine together with the formalin at time of preparation at proper dosage. The formalin breaks down after about 7 hours.

Naturally, if this works, it could be very effective. However, does this make any sene to you? Bottom line, I'm just trying to appreciate correct usage of formalin.

[leebca]

Formalin is not a 'one-shot' application. It is a series of dips. I follow the procedure written by Terry B.

If the 'guy who runs an exotic fish store' is a chemist, he may be right. But I would tend to follow the recommendations made by medication manufacturers. There should be no one more knowledgeable about the medication than the people who formulated it.

Questions like 'Does the 'guy' really know what is in the medicationa?' Does the 'guy' know how it was made?' etc., etc. The manufacturer has the answers to these questions.

If the 'guy' knows what he's talking about, then it should be easy to get the endorsement of the people (Seachem) who make Cupramine. They are chemists and they know their product.

What 'guy' doesn't realize is that he has not done any studies to determine if he is cutting the life of those fish in half or more. People don't understand that "Yeah. The fish looks good, but it may now only live a few more months."

People forget the effects of cyanide poisoning. What happens. You buy the fish, it looks healthy, eats well, etc., etc., then dies.

Without doing a proper study on the effects of this 'new treatment' procedure, it is just a layman's guess and all 'guy' knows is that the fish aren't dying in his tanks, so what if they die a year later after someone has bought it? 'Guy' can always blame the guy for bad water quality or even better, sell the aquarist medications.