[crete456]

what are the best vitamins & trace elements for marine fish and where can one get them...also does anyone know of a good online shop to purchase these and other goods...

[rayjay]

There is no need for adding trace elements and vitamins in a normal salt water tank.
Water changes help to replenish what is lacking, but mostly, the water changes lower the trace elements that build up because there is so much in the foods we feed out tanks, the levels can get much higher than normal salt water, in a very short time.
Don't add anything that you don't test for first, and find it lacking.
Calcium and alkalinity replacement should be all that is needed under almost all circumstances.
As for vitamins, I reserve the use of such things for fish/corals/inverts that need help in building the immune system to aid in recovery from injury or parasites.
I use vitamin B complex and vitamin C soaked in the foods I feed.

[leebca]

Hi crete456. Thanks for posting!

It is essential to add trace elements for the sake of your fish, unless you are doing more than 50% water changes every 4 or less weeks.

There are several choices in additives. Any trace element additive with 10+ of the essential elements is okay. I use Kent Trace Elements, but that isn't a plug!

For vitamins, I've listed them in my post on fish nutrition:
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

Some of those readily available are:
Vita-Chem, GVP, Selco, and Zoe.

Most local fish stores should carry trace elements and vitamins. You can also find them on-line from Reefland sponsors.

[oktober7609]

I AGREE WITH LEEBCA!

I test for then add trace elements with regular water changes to replace anything that gets used, or that active carbon may take out...

I also use the Kent Marine line of products, and online I like:

http://www.marinedepot.com (also a sponsor here...)

-oktober7609

[rayjay]

Originally Posted by leebca

It is essential to add trace elements for the sake of your fish, unless you are doing more than 50% water changes every 4 or less weeks.

Wow!! I've never done anything near that kind of water changes in any of my ten systems, and, in the 12 plus years I've been reefing, I've never added trace elements.
I vary on my water changes but probably average about 15%-20% every 3 weeks.

[greenbean36191]

I agree with Ray. There is no demonstrated need for "trace elements" by any of the animals in our tanks and in fact many of them are toxic at levels above NSW. Most are already much higher than NSW levels to begin with and are added by foods. Water changes are important to remove trace elements from the system.

[Poseidon]

I am in Ray's camp as well, the ONLY thing I add is Kalk. I do 20% or so water changes monthly, and all has been running very smoothly!

[Ixthys]

Originally Posted by oktober7609

I AGREE WITH LEEBCA!

I test for then add trace elements with regular water changes to replace anything that gets used, or that active carbon may take out...

-oktober7609

What trace elements are you testing for?

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

i too in 2 years have never added a trace element to my sps/clam reef....i do 10% every 7-10 days w.c.'s for them...........i add Zoe and, or Zoecon once a day to a feeding

every tank is different though, this just works for me

[leebca]

rayjay - That's why it's essential to use trace elements - for a fish tank.

greenbean and ray. You're wrong guys. I used to be where you were until I conducted studies on trace elements. In a FO and FOWLR tank I sent samples to an analytical laboratory to measure trace elements:
Trace elements of freshly prepared salt water (three different salt mixes);
Trace elements in the above two types of tanks (5 tanks altogether)
- 1 week after water change
- 2 weeks after water change
- 3 weeks (just before and after a 40% water change)
- 4 weeks
- 5 weeks
- 6 weeks
- 7 weeks (just before and after a 40% water change)
- 8 weeks
- 9 weeks (added trace elements)
- 10 weeks
-11 weeks (added trace elements)
-12 weeks
-13 weeks (just before and after a 25% water change)
- tests repeated 9 to 13 week again.

At the cost of about $2800 I showed to myself that adding trace elements is needed. The ocean replenishes trace elements much faster than we do. In our fish aquariums (I'm not including reef tanks here) the fish and fish with LR there, take up elements faster than we can replenish them. It's a fact to me.

It's a falacy to say, 'If you can't measure it, it's not needed.' It's needed and after time with a consistant addition of trace elements and water changes, the trace elements reach a nice level of peaks and valleys that provide what the fish finds in the wild.

There are about 117+ elements. 95 elements are found in the seas and oceans. Our fish need 13 of those that are called 'trace elements' to live healthy long lives. When you have fish that have lived 25+ years without adding trace elements, I might listen. But my fish get trace elements AND some are now past the 18-year life mark with no health issues in their entire lives. It was only recent that I proved they were needed to maintain a level available to the fish.

So that everyone doesn't have to repeat the experiment. The outcome was that:
Add trace elements (I use Kent) every two weeks (between water changes).

[leebca]

Ixthys - I checked for: Strontium, I, Fe, Molybdenum, Zn, Mn, Selenium, Cu, Cr, Co, Lithium, Ni

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

then why do corals and fish live with polyp extension and good coloration and grow and reproduce in 'tons' of reef tanks that don't do anything other than w.c.'s for trace elements?

[Ixthys]

Wow, Lee, I hope you were able to write that off!

Do you use Over-the-counter tests on a routine basis on the ones that are available or are you satisfied with the test that you ran? I would assume the latter!

[leebca]

Ixthys,

You need to understand the gist of the project. The project was to compare these elements (which are "known" to be needed by marine fishes) to natural ranges of these elements in sea water.

The project showed that boxed artificial salts don't contain the quantities of these elements that are found in 'natural sea water' (NSW).

By this I don't mean that they are lower. Sometimes they are higher. For instance: Marine fish need copper in the water around them. The copper in NSW is very low. But artificial salts (the 3 tested) have a 'huge quantitiy' compared to sea water. Although copper decreases over time in the closed aquarium, it never reached a low enough limit to pass that copper concentration found in NSW.

Thus, the trace element additions needed do not have to include copper. So although trace element additions include many trace elements, there is no need to use one containing copper.

The tests were performed to compare to NSW. Test kits available to us are worthless for this. These elements were tested in an professional analytical laboratory equipped with mass spectrometers, IR and other equipment to measure concentrations less than ppb.

But let's take the position as some stand upon. If you can't test for it don't add it. The fact, we can't test most of these elements so it isn't an option to test or not to test. We can't test with test kits at home. But it doesn't mean the water doesn't need these things. The expensive and (relatively) sophisticated analyses showed that enough of the trace elements (some marginally coming with the dry salt we use) need fortification because they decrease in concentration below that of NSW between water changes.

I don't know nor am I saying the fish or LR are using them up. The project only showed they were 'disappearing.'

Although I only send a sample to the lab every quarter, it still supports the basic guideline I can share:

Add trace elements every two weeks in between water changes. I'm saying that some of these elements are dropping below NSW values over time, between water changes. The addition brings them back above NSW values so the inhabitants of the marine tank never see a concentration below what is found in NSW.

[leebca]

E-A-G-L-E-S,

Not all marine specimens require the same quantities of trace elements.

Why do some corals fail? Why do some fish get cloudy eye now and then?

I gues it's as as easy to say those that did fail or show signs of stress didn't get proper nutrition as to say those that never showed any problem were getting proper nutrition. Or. . .How do you know they weren't getting proper nutrients? Got tests?

I mean, what you see is anecdotal, what I propose is based upon analyses. The elements were disappearing below natural salt water ranges. I choose the latter to base my approach. Is it needed, is another good question.

I believe in what Einstein says. If there are 95 natural elements in sea water can humans say they aren't needed? Or back to Einstein -- God didn't play dice with the Universe.

[leebca]

If anyone would like to investigate other's opinions on the addition of trace elements, Julian Sprung writes a lot about this in his third volume.

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

you know more than i do about this, it just seems many do well without it.....how would one know what types he needed to replace? Say i decided i might try it.....what do i dose?
thanks for time - matt

[leebca]

Hi Matt. Just keep in mind that I'm coming from the position of marine fishes. I can't speak for those who maintain a full reef.

I do know that some reef keepers use a calcium generator. This is one way trace elements are introduced into their system.

I know that some reef keepers boost calcium using 'dirty' chemicals, like Dow Flakes. This brings with it some trace elements.

I know that some reef keepers boost maganesium using products such as Epsom Salts. This brings with it some trace elements.

The same can happen when the aquarist boosts their alkalinity.

I boost my alkalinity just to maintain and spread my coralline. I use sodium carbonate for this which is lab grade, which actually contains very little trace elements. (I purposely have stopped adding/controlling calcium in order to reduce the spread of the coralline to my aquarium sides. So the only calcium they get is from the water changes. It works well to reduce my having to scrape the viewing parts of my tank!)

I don't know how all the above fits in to what a reef keeper should be doing. So I would rely on the guidance from people/authors like Julian Sprung who are more the experts on reef life.

How would you know. . .About the only thing you could do is, with your particular system, spend the $ to analyse the trace element concentrations before the water change, and in the water just made up. If the concentrations are that of natural sea water (or above), no worries.

Aquaculture has brought the aquarist a lot of information about fishes and edible invertebrates. But not so much information about other marine life. Those trace elements have been determined to be 'essential' because humans have found that food (marine) fishes need those elements to remain healthy. What the other marine life needs is a litte like shooting from the hip.

On-the-other-hand, it does no harm to add trace elements so long as you are performing regular water changes. With the water changes, no single trace element should be building up.

I would only be guessing here, but if I kept a full reef aquarium with a mix of marine life AND I used low grade additives that bring trace elements with them, I would add trace elements to my reef once a month, in between a water change. I would personally feel confident that, although I hadn't measured the exact need, the trace elements would be available to my livestock. For the quantity, I would follow the addition quantity on the bottle (but not the recommended frequency mentioned on the bottle).

If I were using top grade chemicals and believed that trace elements were not finding their way into my aquarium outside of my water changes, then I would proceed with the every two week additions.

I apologize that I don't have the info for reef aquarists. But for that area, I would still rely on people like Julian Sprung and their opinions about what non-fish marine life need in this area.

Thanks for posting here Matt.

[rayjay]

Sorry leebca, but I'll stick with Dr Rons study done on hobbyist tank water where it showed excessive amounts of just about everything that I can recall.
Every time you feed the tank, you add trace elements that are part of the food and they continually build up to the point that some can be hazardous in tanks that don't do sufficient water changes.
Also, the fact I have so many systems that I've never added to, and that goes for Reef, fish only, and seahorse systems, and they have never demonstrated a need for trace elements.
As for Julian Sprung, I owe a lot to the man as he is responsible for me getting to this stage of the hobby, but since he started Two Little Fishies, I take some of what he says with a grain of salt when it involves something that his company sells.
Now, for fish only tanks, I mix my home made salt water 50/50 with IO, and while the home made water chemicals I use will have some trace elements in them as impurities, I feel strongly that they are nowhere near what is in IO.
My home made water consists of sodium chloride, magnesium chloride, sodium sulphate, and calcium chloride. I add washing soda to buffer the pH.

[leebca]

Disagreement is healthy!