Sick Royal Gramma

[WillieM96]

I have a Royal Gramma that I've been keeping in a 12 gallon nano cube (no other animals in there) that appears to be sick with something. Since I got him in November, he has had tiny dust-like white spots on him and has displayed scratching behavior. Both of these have been on and off over the past 7 months. Yesterday, I saw the spots are back plus there seems to be a small patch of pink scales on both sides just behind the purple/yellow transition. It doesn't look like an ulcer as it looks like the scales are still intact, just a pink color change. Anyone have any ideas what this is and how to treat it? I'd like to move him over to a larger tank in the next few weeks but I want him disease free first. Thanks!

[leebca]

WELCOME !

A photo would be the best thing for us to see to try and help you.

Some of the symptoms of Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) include flashing (scratching), rapid breathing, and a fine, powder-like dusting on the surface of the fish. The word "Velvet" in this disease's common name, comes from the fish having a sheen to its surface, similar to that of velvet cloth when infection from this disease progresses into its 'massive' infection level. The appearance can be like the fish was dusted with talc or powdered sugar -- the spots are so small.

Marine Velvet however, usually kills its host pretty fast in an aquarium. Your fish is alone and maybe it has been fighting off a massive infection until now. Your fish could have developed some resistance to the disease, also. Still, any fish can easily succumb to it when water quality, nourishment, or anything stresses it.

You don't mention if the fish is breathing faster than it usually does. If it is and the above symptoms seem to fit, then I would treat the fish as if it was infected with Marine Velvet. But I would like very much to see a photograph of it if you can.

If you decide it is likely to be Marine Velvet, treat the fish quickly.

The fish should be removed to a hospital tank (5 or 10 gallon for that fish) where you will give it a copper treatment (I would suggest using Cupramine). For copper information see:
Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

During the treatment, you'll need to feed beta glucan to boost it's immune system and plenty of vitamins. Info on these are given here:
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

If you need help after reading the above references, just ask here!

[WillieM96]

I know these pictures aren't the clearest but that's the best I could get out of my POS digital camera. He actually looks a little better today but the pinkish areas are still there. If you look in these photos, they're subtle but they're just caudal to the purple/yellow divide in the upper (dorsal) part of the side.

[leebca]

You're right about them not being too clear. I can see a color transition, but not clearly enough to see the scales.

What about other symptoms? Are the eyes clear? Is the fish sluggish or less active than previously?
Is the fish breathing with difficulty?
Do you see very small spots like I described as Marine Velvet?
Is the fish still flashing (scratching)? How often?

Tell us what you're feeding this fish and how often, please.
Also, how long has that rock been in the aquarium?
Have you tested for ammonia and nitrite lately? What were the results?
Have you recently tested for copper? If not, can you get your LFS to give it one test for you?

[WillieM96]

The eyes are clear, he did seem a bit sluggish yesterday but he's moving around today like he normally does. His breathing does seem a little labored but not like he's on his death bed. There are tiny white spots on his tail fin (about 5 total). There seems to be a bit fewer than yesterday but he hasn't had a sheen on his skin. The rock has been in there since november but it's not live rock...this was regular old tuffa rock. The only thing growing in there is Cyano, unfortunately.

Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and copper are all at zero. I thought the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate tests could be bad but they're giving me readings on my cycling tank, so I don't think it's the test.

Since November, I've been feeding him TetraMarine flakes, 3 flakes twice a day. Just last week i started him on frozen Formula One- about a fifth of a cube every other day.

In this photo, I circled the pink spot in question. It is fairly faint but it wasn't there before.

[leebca]

The reason I was concerned about the rock is that it didn't seem 'normal' and it appears to have some outgassing.

Tufa rock can carry minerals and elements in it that can slowly release into the aquarium. With only one fish there, we can't tell for sure if the rock is slowly poisoning the fish or not. (If other fishes were there, they might show similar conditions if it was from poisoning). The presence of cyano does say that something is feeding them. Any ideas on that?

Do you have a place to put the fish, like a hospital tank?

I don't like the sound of 'spots' but not all spots are evil! Still, I think I'd prepare for a copper treatment, a hyposalinity treatment and, a bacterial infection treatment. You may want to lay in the basic supplies for these as mentioned in:
Stocking the Marine Fish Medicine Cabinet

The Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto) is a carnivore. At your first opportunity, please offer a varied diet with supplements, as recommended here:
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

Be sure to add vitamins, fats and the beta glucan to its diet. The beta glucan, found in (human) health food stores is only a temporary additive for the time being, until your fish is 'normal.'

The color transition isn't too large of a concern. The Royal Gramma often fades from its purple color into its yellow color over time. Keep an eye on it and try to determine from your photos (before and after) if it is increasing in size.

My immediate opinion and feel is to observe the fish closely to see if there are any changes. In the meantime, change its diet; have a hospital tank standing by; and obtain some medications.

Sometimes the most difficult thing to evaluate is the effects of stress. The Royal Gramma should be in an aquarium of no less than 29 gallons. Even when they are small, they deserve that space. Since you're planning on moving it anyway, I'm not worried about its future as much as I am about the stress on the fish now.

If you see more spots, change in condition, or any new symptom and/or development, please post again.

[WillieM96]

I, unfortunately, did most of my research after I started up the first fish tank (nano cube). I realized about 4 months ago that the tank was simply too small for him but I'm trying to fix that now. I'm hoping to keep the nano cube as a hospital tank in the future.

As far as the cyano, I've been going nuts over that. I have a little protein skimmer in there, I try to feed sparingly, and I do water changes with distilled water I buy at the store. When I started the water changes with the distilled water, I noticed a slow down in the cyano growth but I will admit the past few weeks I haven't paid as much attention to the nano cube while I'm setting up the the bigger tank, so conditions have deteriorated a bit. I can't wait until this transition is over.

[leebca]

Hang in there. I'm glad you're into this hobby. You seem to be conscientious about how to do it right and willing to learn.

[WillieM96]

Just a quick update. I started treating him with malachite green 4 days ago (1 drop per gallon every other day) and it actually seems like he might be getting worse. Ammonia and Nitrite were at zero as of last night. If this stuff actually killed the parasite, I would think that he should at least just maintain the number of white spots...if anything, he's got more now and his gills appear to be affected. Next step i'm going to take is cupramine. The unfortunate part is that I'll be going away on vacation next week and I'll just have to hope the person I leave in charge can add the drops for me.

Believe it or not, this is kinda gut wrenching- my wife and I got attached to the little devil. We're really hoping he pulls through.

[leebca]

I understand about your feelings for the fish, Willie. On one extreme, there are those that can't be bothered by them and use them for 'show' and those that are attached to them as they would to any pet.

I'd suggest doing the Cupramine treatment and starting it immediately. This must be done in a tank without substrate or materials made of carbonates.

If you begin immediately, and do diligent tests for copper content using the Salifert or Seachem Copper Test Kit, you can stabilize the copper concentration before you leave for vacation and thus have less for your 'person' to do.

Quite often the initial addition of Cupramine 'disappears' in part and an adjustment is needed to hold the copper concentration where it needs to be. Forget the instructions on the bottle for making further additions. Go with the first recommended dose on the bottle instructions, and check two or three times a day for copper to be sure it is there in the right concentration.

When you leave, the copper concentration needs to be BOTH where it should be AND stabilized. If it isn't BOTH, the treatment will be likely be either a waste of time or dangerous for the fish. The above is assuming the 'person' will not be able to perform a copper test and make the calculation for how much Cupramine to add.

Good luck!

[WillieM96]

One quick question: The tank is a nano cube, so there is some biological filter media in the back but I have several pounds of tuffa rock in there with sand. If I just remove these, am I going to cause ammonia levels to go up or can the filter media take care of it?

[leebca]

It depends on how much bioload has been driving the biological filter(s). With only one small fish, the biomedia in the back might be enough to handle the bioload.

There is another issue and that is how the bacteria will respond to the presence of copper. Some bacteria will stop their activity in the presence of copper and you might find that even if the biomedia in the back could handle the bioload, the bacteria may stop functioning when the copper hits them.

[WillieM96]

Well, I removed all the rock last night and added the cupramine until copper read 0.50. I think all the stress of changing the fish tank around was too much- the fish died this evening. He went from being pretty normal acting yesterday with lots of spots to dead today. Anyway, I tested all the chemical levels and Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite were all at zero. The surprising part is that when I took the aquarium apart tonight, it stunk like nothing I've ever smelled in my life. I know there was a lot of cyano in there but can that smell that bad? I'm wondering if this smell could have been related to what was stressing the fish.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of your loss. Don't despair. I think you will probably improve your approach to the hobby and things will work better in the future.

Smell:
It depends on what it smelled like?

If it smelled like rotten eggs, that is most likely hydrogen sulfide and that is a very bad poison to fishes.

If it smelled like a fresh ocean breeze, it should be okay.

If it smelled like a scummy harbor with floating, rotting seaweed and other junk, that is not good.

[WillieM96]

It smelled like an intense combination of the last 2. I just don't get how ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels can all be at 0 and you still get a smell like that! I know it's not the test kits because I just cycled my big tank and tested the parameters with the same test kit and the levels all seemed to go up and then come back down. I'll definitely have it double checked at my LFS but I don't think the kit is bad. I'm just trying to pin it down so I don't make the same mistake again. The only thing I can think of is that the only live things added to the tank were the fish and bacteria (bio-spira) leaving no competition to the cyano, which grew completely out of control in there. There were always gas bubbles coming off of the cyano blooms- I always just assumed it was oxygen. Does cyano produce that sort of a filthy smell and if so, is that harmful/poisonous?

[leebca]

One of the reasons that cyanobacteria are used is to indicate bad water quality. They show up in an aquarium that hasn't matured but still undergoing changes. They never really 'disappear' from the aquarium, but in a mature tank they are not very noticeable. Their presence indicate a water quality problem.

Cyanobacteria are everywhere, including the air found in the dessert! They are a huge importance (and just as huge of a nuisance to the aquarist) to the planet.

What you might be missing Willie, is that water quality isn't just the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate. It also includes organic materials dissolved in water.

I still suspect the rock. As I mentioned in my third post? the rock should not be outgassing like is seen in the photos. I'd suggest you not use that rock again and instead use base rock or live rock. Did you smell the rock up close to see how it smells?

What the bacteria produce wouldn't be noticeable to your nose. Their food however, could be noticeable to your nose. They like organics and phosphates.

Without a microscope examination, it isn't clear just what the 'stuff' might be. You have determined it is cyanobacteria for sure? Cyanobacteria may out-gas. It is usually a blue-green color which is what gives it its name - blue-green algae.