[baobao]

Lee,

Could I turn on my UV Sterilizer while using cupramine? Fish stores I've contacted all leave on UV Sterilizer while medicating with cupramine, albeit at a about 0.15 ppm.

I'd like to keep the UV sterilizer on, as it helps keep the water cleaner.

Could you comment on this?

[Poseidon]

Well, I am not Lee, but I know that SeaChem strongly discourages the use of UV while using cuprimine. If I am not mistaken it is even on the label. When I contacted SeaChem about this in the past, I think they said something about the UV breaking a bond in the compound and causing the copper to be much more toxic....

I am sure Lee will fill in my blanks...

[baobao]

I am aware of SeaChem's caution, but every local fish store I know of runs the UV sterilizer and concurrently medicates tanks with cupramine. I think they do, however, keep the cupramine at a lower level than the 0.4 ppm recommended for treatment.

(I am not a chemist, but would be curious/appreciate insights on this possibility).

[leebca]

As Poseidon indicates, Seachem recommends that the UV be turned off during Cupramine treatment. What's important is WHY they make such a recommendation.

If you understand what Cupramine is, according to my post:
Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems
you'll note it is formulated with a protein molecule.

The UV disrupts protein molecules and thus would disrupt the Cupramine formula. This exposes the copper and makes it more lethal/poisonous to the marine organisms. In essence, the person turning a UV on this product is converting it to a free copper, like copper in a copper-salt treatment.

Many LFSs have almost as many different 'ideas' as there are LFSs. Unfortunately, what they see is the fish for (hopefully for them) less than a few weeks. They hope to sell it within that time. If that fish lives only a year in your tank, then they can sell you more fish, right? But I don't think they're that smart. They don't know that by running the UV while treating with Cupramine they are poisoning their livestock and shortening their lifespan and damaging the fish's normal immune system and thus making their fish more susceptible to fish diseases. But then, if the fish gets sick in your tank, they get to sell you medicines.

It's a circle! What's best for the fish is often not considered in such 'ideas' (business decisions). But, the LFS in this case is actually showing their ignorance of the Cupramine product and what the UV does. . .Why bother using and paying the price for Cupramine if the UV will just destroy the product? They might as well save their money and use copper salts, which (if you read the above referenced post) is the most dangerous and lethal form of a copper treatment. In any event they are now (by using the UV) using copper in its most lethal (to fish) form. Is this clever?

I would not personally shop at an LFS doing such a thing. They are obviously not that well attuned to what's going on and their fish are not going to live long nor likely to remain healthy, in my aquarium.

[Poseidon]

Here is SeaChems response when I asked in their Forum:

" Tech Support CH vbmenu_register("postmenu_1167", true);
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 389


Re: Cupramine and UV
Cupramine is a ionic copper bond to an amine. Being bonded like this makes the ionic copper safe at higher levels. UV light breaks this bond. This releases ionic copper at a dangerous level. This is why we recommend to turn off your UV sterilizers."

[Poseidon]

I would say Lee nailed the answer, just like I thought he would!

[baobao]

Thanks - I just wanted to get Lee's buy in before doing anything foolish. This leads me to another thought - what are your thoughts on UV sterilizers? should pathogens be present, it can help keep population count under control, but fish are still susceptable. i mean should you detect fish suffering ailment such as ich/velvet, i don't think you would bank on uv sterilizer help contain the outbreak? you'd treat with copper and turn uv sterilizer off. but when treatment is completed, then you don't need the uv sterilizer. bottom line, what is the point of even having a uv sterilizer? is it to help avoid catastrophic expansion in number of pathogens?

[leebca]

As you point out quite well, the value of the UV is not to eradicate pathogens from an aquarium system. If an aquarist diligently uses a quarantine process, there should be no obligate parasites and few pathogens in their aquarium. However, there are at least three (very good) uses for the UV in a marine aquarium (IMHO).

If the aquarist is going to use a UV, then it should be rated to kill amoeba and one-celled animals. This means both the energy and flow rate have to be set to do this. Once this has been established, the properly maintained UV has three useful purposes:

1. The aquarist can't keep bacteria out of the aquarium. The aquarium system is closed and the probability of a bacteria count much higher than that found in the seas and reefs is pretty much a sure thing. Aquarists add food; fish add waste; bacteria add waste; organisms dieing off add waste; all invertebrate and coral livestock adds waste; and even the pods contribute to waste. All these things contribute to a bacterial count. Although the fish should be fine when provided the proper nutrients, there is no need to 'push the envelope' of their resistance. The UV will keep bacteria in the water column under control.

2. The aquarist can't keep micro algae out of the aquarium. They are everywhere. . .even in the desert air! The aquarist will find that the UV will really work well at reducing algae in the water column.

3. The aquarist can't stop some viruses from getting into the aquarium. Fish often 'live' with a virus. Much like humans live with the cold virus. The UV will alter any virus that passes through it, so that the virus is no longer a threat to the marine livestock. (If you believe viruses are 'alive' then then you might say that the UV 'kills' the virus.)

The UV will not stop a bacterial infection from getting to a fish that is weak or malnourished. The UV will not stop a viral attack on a weak fish. But a UV will clarify the water as it destroys bacteria and micro algae.
It works well in conjunction with a powerful protein skimmer.

[baobao]

What should the flow rate/energy be set at to achieve objective you cited?

[Ixthys]

Do you run a UV on your quarantine tank? Main tank?

[leebca]

baobao,

I'm not good with that question! Not my area of expertise and marginally my area of information. :slap:

There is a site that has some information on it with regards to your question. It is a vendor site, so they have something to sell. But so far I have found the information they provide to be useful. That is:

http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/sterilizers.html

The problem with the UV treatment is that there is no standard. So trying to figure out what a manufacturer claims in relation to how effective their device is, is a bit of a mystery (to me at least!).

[leebca]

Ixthys,

Since I've learned about UV I have always had a UV on my FO tanks. It is almost a requirement for me. I overfeed my fish routinely. This is a necessity since I like many of the timid and 'slow eating' fishes. There has to be waste at the time of feeding in order for them to get their share of the meal.

For the bacterial issues I mentioned before, it is essential for me to have a UV on my main display/system.

Regarding the QT. . .I have a UV on my QT for use when I do not use chemical treatments. If the fish is there for observation, I run the UV. IF the medication is suitable for use with a UV, I run it during that kind of treatment.

[Poseidon]

This is also from a vendor site, but I consider Aqua UV to be the best when it comes to UV. I run a 57W model on my tank. (90 Gallons, with about 50 gallons in the sump)

http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/uvsizingchart.php