scotts wrasse questions before i buy???

[prow]

hi everyone. well i have a order on hold right now for 3 scotts wrasses from cook island. i hear i should get 5. but dont want that many. i only really want to get the 1 females and 1 male, or all females and let nature pick who will be the male. anyway, mainly because of the price i am hoping 2 will work, but will get 3 of them if it will help. however i dont want to get have to get 5, just to much money for all them. can anyone give me some advice here. will 2 be cool, and if the male losses its coloration how much of his color will fade? so trying to avoid buying 5, will 3 be good or should just go with one fish. if so and its a female will it change to male with out a female present. these are med fish so most likely they will have already changed into one sex or another. i am not sure but i thought a supermale will not change back to a female, what about the normal males will they change back to female, if i happen to get 2 males? what do you think, buy just one, two or three.

[leebca]

WELCOME!

The Scott's Fairy Wrasse, Scotts' Wrasse, Velvet, or Greenback Fairy Wrasse (Cirrhilabrus scottorum) is a very beautiful fish. They can be very skittish even after established and jump when startled. They are known to be 'great jumpers' and will find the smallest opening in the top to leap through.

Anyone serious about keeping a Fairy Wrasse should read (and memorize ) this article:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...hcs3/index.php

You don't mention the size of your aquarium. To house a male and two or three females, I should think you'd want to have a 100g tank or larger. Either the females have to be introduced first, or at the same time as the male. If they're all females, I should think that 3 females should be good enough to produce one reasonable male.

Although the male travels with three or so females in the wild, I'm unsure about their behavior in an aquarium.

Two males in a very large tank will keep each other's colors brilliant and I don't think one would change to a female so long as some females are present.

I'd go with one confirmed male if I wanted the fish for that coloration/pattern, and thus be able to comfortably keep him in a 55 gallon aquarium or larger without concern. Smaller ones acclimate better than larger ones, but the larger ones ship very well. I've seen them come through dozens at a time with 100% survival.

I think other info you will get from the above referenced article. Good luck! Post some photos of the fish you acquire and during their growth.

Maybe someone else has some first-hand husbandry info on these guys?

Please post!

[prow]

oppss, i guess i should have gave my tank specs. the tank is 72X18X20 with a 45gal sump/refugium. about 150lbs of LR. i did read that article but it really doesnt say much about this. good article about them though. current fish; banded sleeper goby, 2 bluejaw tile fish, 2 perc. clowns, yellow clown goby, neon blue cleaner goby, purple firefish. will also be getting a labout wrasse (Cirrhilabrus laboutei).

[Ninong]

Cirrhilabrus scottorum is haremic in the wild. A terminal phase territorial male will usually control several females and juveniles. The dominant male will not tolerate other males in its terrority. The dominant male swims several feet above the harem of females and juveniles that swim close to the bottom. This behavior carries over to captivity, too. For this reason, I would not advise putting more than one species of Cirrhilabrus wrasse in a tank of your size (110 gallons). I did keep two different species together (C. scottorum and C. lineatus) in a 120-gal tank but the dominant male Scotts did harass the female Lineatus. This was not all that bad because the female Lineatus was faster than the male Scotts and was never caught. However, in hindsight, I should have stuck with just one species in such a small tank.

My Scotts wrasses were the Australian variant from the Great Barrier Reef. Their coloration is quite different from the Scotts wrasses from the Cook Islands. They are usually collected at a larger size and mine were very large. Both the male and the "female" were over 5" TL. I have to put the word female in quotes because I'm not so sure I had a female. It's quite possible that both of my Scotts were males (it's a long story that involves the original female remaining in the tank alone for five weeks before the arrival of a new supermale to replace the first one that didn't survive the stress of shipping in January).

These fish are considered difficult to ship. Scott Michael cautions that they should be shipped in LARGE bags of water. My supplier did ship in very large bags of water but unfortunately he shipped overnight on a VERY cold night and the heat packs were insufficient to keep the water temperature above the low 60's on the first shipment.

As far as holding their coloration is concerned, mine did hold their coloration reasonably well but it did fade in intensity from what it was when they first arrived. That's for the Scotts. I didn't notice any change in coloration of the Lineatus. For your size tank, I would choose one species of Cirrhilabrus and stick with that one species. I think three specimens (either all females or two females and one male) would be good but you could go for a total of four is you wanted to. One advantage of introducing more than one female for the male is that he will have to divide his attention and not be able to harass the same fish. And he will harass the females in the beginning. That period shouldn't last longer than about a week to 10 days. During the first couple of months after introducing the replacement male Scotts and the female Lineatus, the dominant Scotts (previously female) would patrol the tank, swimming near the surface, swooping down to harass the two other fairy wrasses. Fortunately these were not real chases, as they were in the beginning. These were just ritual feints to keep the other two fish in line and remind them who was boss.

Heaven forbid you should accidentally end up with more than one male. If you do, all hell will break loose. That's not a good idea at all. That happened to me accidentally because my "female" was "unsupervised" for five weeks waiting for a new boyfriend. "She" nearly killed him when he arrived. After keeping him confined for 10 days, "she" finally accepted him and allowed him to come out of his hiding place and feed. During that period, "she" had chewed off almost half of his dorsal fin because of the male coloration (dark blue). "Her" dorsal fin was still changing from brilliant gold to dark blue. It took a few more weeks to completely change from the Australian variant mature female bright gold to the supermale dark blue. My "female" was approximately 4.25" TL when I got her. She grew about 1/2" during the five weeks she was in the tank without a male. At the time that I introduced the replacement supermale, the "female" was approximately 1/2" shorter than the incoming male. There was, however, absolutely no question as to who was the boss.

I ended up with two supermale Scotts and one female Lineatus. Actually I had ordered a pair of Lineatus with the replacement Scotts male but the resident "female" Scotts killed the incoming supermale Lineatus. She couldn't catch the female Lineatus and she confined the supermale Scotts for 10 days.

These fish are great fish!!! My Scotts would eat out of my hand and one of them (the original female, who changed to male) would always rub up against my hand whenever I was cleaning the glass in the tank. Be forewarned that they are jumpers! They will jump a lot and often for no good reason. I knew this and prepared my tank in advance to make it escape proof. In the beginning, they jumped probably two or three times a day but this later slowed down to maybe two or three times a week. The dominant male (former female) very rarely jumped but the other two jumped a lot.

There is a lot of ritual behavior that goes on between fairy wrasses, even interspecific. There is no question that the dominant Scotts controlled the female Lineatus even though they were different species. There is also no question that the dominant Scotts merely tolerated the Lineatus.

The relationship between the two male Scotts was much more complicated and evolved over a period of 10 months to something that appeared to mimic pair bonding. The chases became more ritualistic than real and eventually they engaged in mutual carouselling -- one fish follows closely behind the other as they swim slowly in circles, exchanging the lead every now and then. That can go on for a good 15 or 20 seconds or so. Also, they eventually shared the same resting spot on the sandbed outside the entrance to the dominant male's sleeping spot. They never slept in the same location but they did rest together during the day with their bodies touching side by side.

This raises all sorts of interesting questions. There is no question in my mind that my replacement male was a true supermale. I believe that the first Scotts (the survivor) was a mature female that changed to male during the five weeks she was unattended in the tank without the dominant influence of a male. However, I sent a picture to Rudie Kuiter in Australia that was taken about seven weeks after I got her and before her dorsal fin had finished changing from gold to dark blue and he was of the opinion that she was a supermale at that time.

Virtually all of the sources that I have found claim that supermale Cirrhilabrus wrasses cannot change sex back to female. That's why they're called "terminal phase males." All except the guy who sold me the wrasses in the first place. He's been in the business quite a few years and he is very experienced with Cirrhilabrus wrasses. It is his opinion that male Cirrhilabrus wrasses are capable of sex reversal. Scott Michael says he has heard hobbyists report this in captivity but he has no personal experience of it happening. Again, things that would not happen in the wild for the simple reason that the fish can simply swim away from each other, might happen in the close confines of a small tank. Might. I'm certainly not saying that sex reversal in Cirrhilabrus wrasses is possible, I'm just saying that it would explain what I observed in my tank. Unfortunately, a review of the scientific literature has convinced me that functional sex reversal in terminal phase male Cirrhilabrus wrasses has not been substantiated. But then again, they were examining the gonads of wild collected specimens that had been kept for a period of months in the laboratory specifically to check for possible sex reversal. I wonder if it's possible for a supermale to undergo a sex reversal in spite of the fact that the female gonads do not become viable again? In other words, in the presence of a dominant male in a relatively small aquarium, will other males surrender any dominant behavior and adopt subordinate behavior that mimics pair bonding? If so, this could be what the supplier had witnessed and what I witnessed. Whether this should be called sex reversal is another matter. Is it true sex reversal if the female gonads are not functional or merely role reversal?

In the article Lee linked, Henry Schultz quotes John Randall and Rudie Kuiter as saying that there are no primary males in the Cirrhilabrus genus. That reference is dated 1989. That may be outdated. More recent publications by both Rudie Kuiter and Scott Michael state that some species of Cirrhilabrus wrasses are known to have a certain percentage of primary males. It may be a very small percentage but they have been found nonetheless. A primary male is one that is born with only male sex organs. A secondary male is one that is a true protogynous hermaphrodite -- it has to develop its female sex organs first before it can develop male sex organs. Once the male sex organs are fully functional, the female sex organs atrophy and cannot be reclaimed. If the sex change process is interrupted during the transition period, it is possible for the fish to revert to female as long as the female sex organs are still functional. Only secondary males will become supermales and hold territory. Primary males will always remain subordinate.

P.S. -- Here is a short article on Scotts Fairy Wrasses that Scott Michael wrote several years ago.

[prow]

nice great info thanks. hummm so only one cirrhilabrus, dam i wanted to get one Cirrhilabrus labouti and then 1 male and 2 female scott's. add them all togather but now not so sure about that. man this is tough. i really like the labouti, but i have been wanting the scott's cook island varient for so long. man o man why did i fall in love with the expensive ones. the Lineatus is the other one i was thinking, it was them or the scotts. decided on the scotts. what to do, what to do.

ok i have not seen a female scotts wrasse from cook island before. anyone know where i can see a good pic of one.

[leebca]

Ones I've seen are midnight bluish without the pink spot. No photos. You might want to Google it, unless Ninong has a specific reference or photo of one.

[Ninong]

As a matter of fact, I just finished googling images under both Cirrhilabrus scottorum and Scott's Fairy Wrasse and all I came up with were photos of males, both Australian variant and Cook Islands specimens.

The females (and juveniles) from the Cooks Islands are similar in coloration to the males from the Cook Islands with the exception that their coloration is rather drab and they do not have the red spot on the flank.

Rudie Kuiter has some nice pics of both males and females in his book on fairy wrasses.

[Ninong]

Here is Scott Michael's description from Coral Realm. That picture is of a typical male specimen from the Cook Islands but he does describe the coloration of both the males and females. His description is typical of the Cook Islands' Scotts, not the Australian Scotts

[Ninong]

In my experience with my two Scotts, their bodies could photograph as either predominately blue or predominately green. Their coloration didn't change, it just looked either more blue or more green from time to time. Either that or it just photographed differently from time to time.

I might have a few photos saved that will illustrate my point.

[prow]

thanks, i think i will have to check that book out. wow ninong is hooking me up thanks alot. i too could not find any pics, only males. when i get the fish i will have post some pics here. they should get here tuesday. i still have to call and tell how many to send.

[Ninong]

Here are a few pics of my "female" Scotts that were taken on the same day. These pics were taken about a week after I got her and before her dorsal fin had changed from bright gold to navy blue.

Notice that her body appears more blue in some pics and more green in others. These pics were taken within minutes of each other.

[Ninong]

Rudie Kuiter's book is called "Rainbow & Fairy Wrasses." It's mostly pictures with a small amount of description. Scott Michael's book on Fairy Wrasses is much more comprehensive and much larger.

[Ninong]

These pictures were taken about two or three weeks after introduction of the replacement male. Remember that the resident "female" had kept him confined to quarters for the first ten days. At this point, the resident "female" (now male) had been in the tank for about two months and her dorsal fin was changing from gold to navy blue. Actually both the dorsal and anal fins on Australian variant male Scotts are usually navy blue, as are the pectoral fins' leading edges.

Notice that most of the dorsal fin on the incoming male has been chewed down to within about 1/4" of the body. He also suffered bite marks on the top of his head. All of these cleared up within a few weeks and his dorsal fin grew out.

OK, the first picture is actually one that I took of the "female" shortly after her arrival and way before the arrival of the replacement male. This picture should have been included in the above post but they only allow five attachments per post, so...

Hopefully the other pics will be of both Scotts together. I have to find some of those now.

In the pictures where both Scotts are together, notice that the incoming male has much more intense coloration than the resident "female" and that his dorsal fin did not contain any gold at all. "Her" dorsal fin now contains more navy blue than it did when she first arrived. It would later change to almost all navy blue. And, for some strange reason, "she" picked up a lot of navy blue in her caudal fin. It wasn't completely red, it had navy blue, too. And if you look carefully, you can see the ragged edge on the dorsal fin of the replacement male where it had been chewed down during the first few days he was in the tank and being attacked by the resident Scotts.

[Ninong]

A few more pics. Unfortunately, I don't have pictures from several weeks later that showed the complete change in the dorsal fin from gold to navy blue and I don't have pics of the two Scotts wrasses resting together on the sandbed. I was using my sister's digital camera and there was a period there when it was broken and waiting to be sent off for repair.

You can see my female Lineatus in some of the photos and the last one is a close-up of the female Lineatus. She was really very beautiful. (I lost my fairy wrasses in the heat wave following Hurricane Katrina. The Foxface Rabbitfish, Orchid Dottyback and Coral Beauty Angelfish survived.)

[prow]

very nice. i bet you really miss those guys, i know it would kill me to lose those. your lintus was just sweat. hate to hear about your loses.

so would the cooks island scotts female basically look like yours but more blue or a lighter blue?

[Ninong]

so would the cooks island scotts female basically look like yours but more blue or a lighter blue?

No, the Cook Islands females do not look all that much like the Australian variant females. There are a lot of differences between both the males and females from Australia compared to the Scotts fairy wrasses from Fiji and the Cook Islands.

Here is a picture of someone else's male Australian variant Scotts:

That picture was posted to Reef Central by someone with the board name bronco7777. Notice the navy blue dorsal and anal fins and the red caudal fin. The lighter body coloration of this particular specimen is different from mine. There is a lot of variability in coloration of this species between areas and even some variation between specimens from the same region.

Compare that to the picture of a typical male from the Cook Islands in Scott Michael's article. Notice in particular the difference in coloration of the dorsal and caudal fins. Also, notice the typical red patch on the flank of the male Cook Islands specimen. Read Scott Michael's description of the coloration of the females and males in that article. When he mentions that they are yellowish-white below, he's talking about the typical Cook Islands variety. The Australian variant males and females are not yellowish-white below.

[leebca]

I Googled this in a minute:

http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Photos/...y.cfm?ID=12728

[Ninong]

The reason I didn't bother to post those fishbase photos is because only the first two are live and both of those depict Australian variant males. The rest of the pictures, including the females, are preserved specimens and the coloration has faded.

The second photo (middle picture, first row) is typical of my Australian Scotts.

The picture at the far left of the second row depicts two females. The middle picture in the fourth row is a female and the picture to the right of that one is a male, both from Tahiti. The picture on the far right in the first row is also a male from Tahiti.

[leebca]

There were more than 23,000 hits. Try some others.

[Ninong]

There were more than 23,000 hits. Try some others.

Did you find any females? Alive?

All I could find were males.