[dangerousdave]

Hi guys! Im new to this site and forum, tried reefcentral but got nada help there. . .

My tank setup is shown below and about a month ago my two clows shown big bellies (spelling??) and pooped white. My girlfriend got me a diamod watchman goby (peullenaris) shortly after and he also developed the symptoms. . So I got octozin to treat my tank with, it is vertebrae safe and took totall 8 days: first three days three pills a day to desolve in the tank and on the 8th day I did a 50 perc waterchange. My clowns now are looking good, but my gobie didnt really get through ok: he has a bit of a tummy left and dont eat much. He actually chases after the mysis or the flakefood I put in but he just shifts it throug and leave it. . Hm. He´s starting to look thin and im getting worried, he keeps my sand clean and white all by himself... Now he just sits under a LR and dont shift anything.. poor guy.

I have had the thin layer of sand out and washed it to. So I have one more thing I can try, I got Neosal flussig from my german supplier and that to is safe for vertebraes. I dont want to take him out because then I need to take all the LR out and stress the others in the tank... What do u guys think?? Help would be apreciated greatly!



thanks!
Dave
Sweden

----------------------------------------------
Tank setup
24gal tank
24 w light T5 half 10000 half actinic (planing to ad 36x2 compact T5)
13 kg of live rock
1 filter for catching bigger particles
1000 liter/hour pump for fuge (surface runoff)
1200 liter/hour circulationpump in the tank
1 - 3 mm corallsand (reducing the amount due to alot of waste acumulating)
aqualight airpowered skimmer (420 liters/hour airpump) good for 300 liter aquarium
100 watt eheim heater
Aquamedic 9 w UVC with 300 l/h pump running 24/7

inhabitants:
7 turbosnail
1 redlegged hermitcrab
1 cleaner shrimp
2 small percula clowns
1 small green chromis
1 small diamond goby
1 small firefish
1 red sarcophyton coral with 6 frags

[charlesr1958]

While it may be a bit of a stress, I would have to suggest the use of a quarantine tank for any further treatments. Doing in tank medicating tends to reduce the effectiveness of most medications. Being isolated also prevents reinfestations from occuring as well as allowing you to keep a much closer eye on the fish while providing extra care to the fish. For more info on parasites and a host of other problems, please take a look at my Fish Disease page, I hope it is of use to you.

Chuck

[dangerousdave]

Looks like thats what I gotta do, I now see that my clowns are back being fat. . . Took only two days. Think im getting a second cube to keep the fish in to medicate them. Im getting some new soft corals next week and the treatment includes taking down the salinity to 1,018 (have about 1,021 now). Hope the stress of being moved dont kill em...

How long should I keep them out of the tank to be sure that there are no more bad stuff left in the aqarium??

And getting a medtank how do I do with the water? I need to do this very fast and dont have time for the water to cycle? take half from my current tank?

Dave

[charlesr1958]

Being prudent, and since there is always the chance when dealing with internal problems of being fairly hit or miss on a diagnosis, it is a good idea to quarantine any fish for any problem for at least six weeks to ensure all is right again. That time frame also allows obligate parasites the chance to die off in the main tank from lack of a host. Besides a medicated treatment plan, you may also want to soak their food in some garlic since it has been shown to have deworming properties. You may also want to switch over to using Piperazine as it is most likely to be far more effective.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/vermifugefaqs.htm - a great discussion about the causes of and treatments of trematodes.

Chuck

[leebca]

WELCOME! to Reefland and the Marine Fish: Care, Health and Disease Treatment Forum.

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

Here in the USA we have a couple of medications that would take care of the problem, while the fish are in their display tank. The most effective treatment for intestinal/internal problems is an ingested medication. Having said that, unfortunately, your Goby isn't eating. At this point, it would be best to move to a treatment tank, IMHO.

In that tank you'd like to treat with the same medication you've used with some success or switch to a medication of a broad spectrum intestinal cure.

The 'not eating' issue is usually a result of stress (e.g., from the disorder itself) or blockage. Stress (and the Single Marine Fish)

I don't know what products you have available to you. I also know from my time in Europe and at InterZoo 2006 that some medications we use here are not allowed in Europe and vice versa. Can you tell me the ingredients in Octozin? Since it had some positive results, it will give me an idea of the type/kind of organism you're dealing with.

[dangerousdave]

Hi Lee and thanks for the invitation and the help!!

My diamond goby died this morning, he didnt start eating and that did it... To bad. BUT im getting a QT for the others and im keeping them there for at least six weeks, should be getting the QT later this week from my supplier.
I opened him up and hes gut was filled with small pieces of sand?! and mysis. But the sand looked to big for him to be able to poop it out? So blockage is a factor in his death along some parasite? Hm

Octozin contains flagellated protozoacide acording to the website but i didnt find any more info though... hm.

My waterinfo is:
PH 8.4
Temp 26 C
I use tropic marines tests:
ammonium < 0.01
nitrite 0
nitrate < 0,2
KH 6
salt 1,021

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of your loss. I am pleased that you were able to effect some kind of closure on the loss, though. I perform a necropsy on any fish I don't know the cause of death.

If blockage was or was in part the cause of death, then maybe the substrate is the wrong size for a sand sifting Goby?

Your water parameters look good. Tropic Marin test kits aren't popular here, though I wouldn't think of using any other artificial salt. I've used Tropic Marin test kits and prefer Salifert for the most part.

I'm glad you're putting up a quarantine tank. The other two fish are 'cured' though, right? I follow the guidelines in this article for the quarantine of any livestock.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.htm
I only quarantine fish for 6 weeks instead of the author's recommended 4-week quarantine.

Can't make sense of the ingredient you and the site listed. I like to use a broad spectrum internal treatment medication that contains the combination of: levamisole, metrodinazole, and Praziquantel. Or if not available in the combination, I use Praziquantel first and if that doesn't 'work' I then use metrodinazole.

Read more info on this here: Strange Excrement from Fish -or- How to be a Super Pooper Snooper

Now though, I just treat all newly acquired fish for worms with Praziquantel so if something develops later, I confidently believe other intestinal parasites are to blame.

Check out some of the sticky posts in this Forum for other info.

If you need further fish help, have fish questions, or just 'fish-talk' please don't hesitate to post here. Cheers!

[dangerousdave]

Allrighty then, got me a QT tank yesterday and also got some aquamedic baktstarter to speed up the process of maturing the water: Can I put the fish in now and let them swim throuth these six to twelve days of the water and bacteria developing? Or do I have to wait? I really dont want to wait to take em out since now my small green chromis is gone to.. I dont have that much liverock for him to hide in and he´s allways swiming close to the front...

Thanks!

Dave

[leebca]

I don't think there would be a problem to move them over now. As a generality, most of the 'kick-off' bacteria products aren't very helpful. What will do the best is to put in and running that sponge filter as soon as you can.

Other than the sponge filter and clean plastic decorations (like PVC for the fish to hide in), the tank has nothing else in it, right? You can then begin the tank using display tank water. From then on, use only new saltwater from mix to perform water changes.

You will have to control water quality through water changes. After feedings, you need to remove uneaten foods. Watch all water parameters closely (pH, specific gravity, and temperature) to keep them steady.

The reference I gave you in the previous post is a good one for help with a quarantine process.

[dangerousdave]

Great, thanks! I got some pvc plastic T connections on the bottom so they can hide if they want to. Do I need to take out my cleanershrimp and the snails and hermitcrabs to so the bug that is doing this dont survive in my main tank?

[leebca]

I think you will be okay leaving all the invertebrates in the aquarium. Most fish diseases do not transmit to or from invertebrates. Any disease that needs a fish host won't usually use an invertebrate.

Tell us how the other fish are doing and what their condition is like.

[dangerousdave]

Hi! The fish are just scared now since I moved them, but they are allready eating. Feed them just alittle to see. Gonna medicate them and feed them small chunks of garlic to se if I can get this thing overwith. Funniest thing, I had a green chromis that has disapeared?? how can a fish just wanish in a 24 gal tank?? took the LR out today to clean up all the sand and thought I would find something of him but nothing... He was eating and doing just fine one day, I looked him over closely and the next morning: gone.. mabye I should try setting a trap to see whats in the LR??

I allso added new lights to the main tank, bought INTERPET 36w compact T5 (manufactuered by british INTERPET), got the dual setup. So I had to modify my tanks cover some.. but MAN where there light??!! going from 24 w to 96w was a HUGHE differens. Got one 36w 6500K, one 36w 14000 and the old 24 got a new all blue lamp.

Gonna take som pictures and post later, thanks for the replies!

Dave

[leebca]

When panic sets in, fish can fit into the smallest of places. The fish you're missing of course could have jumped out and is now dried up on the floor, or more likely it tucked itself into the LR, equipment, or any nook it could find. I know many fish have been 'accidentally' sent down the drain or found in the bottom of a rock bucket, from their ability to tuck themselves into a rock.

Please keep us informed of your progress!

[dangerousdave]

Allrighty sitting in my recliner in the back of the house using my laptop I now got som pictures! (having a varm and nice swedish summer here, topless girls on the beach... aah)

I think your right about him squeezing into LR well well. Started medicating this morning when I got home from work (work nights) gonna feed them some mysis with vitaminesupplement when Im done here. Here´s some pics of before the new lighting and after!

Dave
after and before!

[leebca]

Great pictures, Dave. Also a very impressive aquascaping on that first one. I like it a lot.

[dangerousdave]

Got another question: I started puting korallfood in the water after moving the LR and been doing so for a week. Its a liquid that contains phytoplankton among other things. I did some tests and found that I have nitrite around 0.1 and nitrate betwen 5 and 10. I got the skimmer going so should I just let my LR fix this on its own or start changing water? I changed 15 liters just four days ago. Im thinking of just letting it be and check the water again in two or three days. What do U think??

[leebca]

I think the best answer is: It depends.

It depends on the livestock (fish, invertebrates, corals, etc.) you've got in the tank. If the livestock cannot handle any nitrite reading, then you need to do what is best for them --- water changes every time you see a nitrite (NO2) or ammonia reading at or over their tolerance level.

Without livestock present or with livestock that can handle some low ammonia and nitrite readings, you can let Nature runs it course. Just be sure to have enough circulation going and without 'dead spots' in your tank.

[dangerousdave]

Hm I did have a 1100 l/H powerhead in the tank as well before, but used it to upgrade my QT with.. hm.. mabye I should put it back, but have a 1100 L/H doing the job of cirkulation in the "sumparea" in the tank.

But what caused this? my chromis decomposing? me moving the LR or the korallfood that I put in every evening? or a combination? Hm think Im gonna change some 20 liters just to be sure. Thanks Lee, really apreciate yer input!

Dave

[leebca]

Hi Dave,

You have to forgive my confusion. I think the first time you mentioned the Green Chromis is when you said it was missing. I don't know of any other history of this fish. You say it was decomposing? I'm unsure what that means. You mean rotting after death? Did you find it?

But what caused this?

Do you mean what caused the nitrite (NO2) reading?

I need to understand what it is you're asking. Sorry for my uncertainty about your questions.

[dangerousdave]

Yepp exactly! what caused the NO2 to rise? My chromis just wanished and Im sertain now that its dead so it must been eaten or is about to be.

I also got rid of the sand in my tank, its been in there since february and I think that also might have something with my NO2 rising?

sorry Im confusing u!

Dave