[CRJDriver]

I'd like to get some input on my funny acting Naso Tang, heres the details.

It seems very lazy for lack of a better word. It lays on the bottom for awhile, then swims around like its fine for about a minute or two, then goes back to lay on the bottom as if its tired. The coloration seems to have deterorated a bit. I saw it eat some dried seaweed last night. I just got done doing a water change and I'll test the water later this evening. Unfortunately I do see a few white spots on the head of the fish. It does not appear to have difficulty breathing as the gills are not going like crazy. I'm hoping its not Ich but I think it might be. Would anyone agree with this. If so, is copper my best option? I don't have any corals (except a few mushroom type things that grew out of the live rock). I do have some snails and crabs. I don't have a QT. Anyone have a diagnosis?

I tried to provide as much info as I could but if more is needs just ask.

[leebca]

Welcome to this Forum. Sorry it was troubles that brought you here.

The first thing you need, as you suspect, is a proper diagnosis. There are photos for you to compare what you are seeing to fishes with Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and word descriptions.

Regarding words: A fish with Marine Ich at the end of the infecting stage, show white spots (Trophonts). They are the size of salt. They may stay on the fish for a few hours or a few days. The fish may seem to recover, then more white spots appear up to three weeks later. Or, the fish could be showing white spots routinely, in different locations.

There are many symptoms of a Marine Ich infection, but many of them are similar to other conditions. The white spots are usually the dead giveaway.

A photo and more detailed Marine Ich information:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

If you've decided it is Marine Ich, you need to immediately setup a hospital tank (QT). Tips on this are found here:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.htm

There are three basic, usually always successful, treatments for Marine Ich, and each requires the fish be out of the display tank. The treatments will kill invertebrates and corals. I'm afraid it is best to bite the bullet and not delay.

A copper treatment is one of the treatments. You might want to read this:
Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

For a copper treatment you need a copper medication (I strongly recommend Cupramine) and at least one copper test kit for the medication (I prefer to have two on hand). Copper is hard on the fish. It's a poison and creates stress on the fish. Many fish, because of the stress of using copper to treat a disease, stop eating. Fortunately for the aquarist and fish, there is another treatment. That is hyposalinity. You lower the salinity using a refractometer. From then on, you control the salinity with a refractometer. This is the only thing/equipment you need for this treatment (other than RO/DI or distilled water).

For a tang with only Marine Ich, I recommend using the hyposalinity treatment.

Tangs under stress show a wide range of reactions. Laying around is one of them. But laying around is also symptomatic of bacterial infections, fluke (gill) infections, and Brooklynella.

I would check your water quality. You say you just performed a normal water change? Do another water change as soon as you can. Make this a large one (70%) and see if the fish perks up any (stops lying around or doesn't lay around as much). Even though the fish may have Marine Ich, it is quite possible for there to also be a water quality issue.

Have you ever checked the water you use to makeup saltwater for pH, ammonia, nitrites, etc.? What are you using for source water?

What about nutrition? Are you giving the fish vitamins and fat supplements? Have you read and are you pretty much following these guidelines: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition

At this point in time, no matter the diagnosis, all foods need a vitamin or fat soaking (alternate) and a beta glucan additive (see above referenced post).

If you have questions, or want to update us, please post!

[CRJDriver]

Thanks for the info, I'll read the mentioned material, however I do think it is Ich.

To answer some of your questions. Tested the water when I got back from the LFS here are the readings. Specific Gravity - 1.022, ph - 8.3, Ammonia - .25, Nitrite - 0, Nitrate - 10. I use tap water when making saltwater, I'll check it to see what its readings are. The LFS also said to try and lower the salinty which is what i'll try and do first, however i think the problem may be bigger than I think, just during the time while i was gone some other fish are starting to show spots. In regards to lower the salinity with a refractometer, can I do this same thing with my little hydrometer? The LFS said try and lower it to about 1.015, would you agree with this number?
I'm sure I'll have more questions after I do some of the reading. Thanks for your help.

[charlesr1958]

How long has your tank been running? Having detectable ammonia is of concern since it will become problamatic in that it can burn the gills of the fish which are already under attack from the parasite. Your only effective course of action is to set up a quarantine tank, remove all of your fish to it and start a hypo salinity treatment within the QT. I would also suggest a refractometer since you will want to lower the salinity to 1.009, a hydrometer is not accurate enough to ensure that level. I would also like to suggest that you do not use copper with a tang, they tend to not do well with it, hypo salinity is much more gentle while acting as a stress reliever at the same time. You may also want to reconsider using tap water, A RO/DI unit can be purchase for around 100 dollars off of ebay.

Marine Ich Quarantine Tanks

Chuck

[leebca]

The specific gravity recommended is not low enough to eradicate the Marine Ich. It is low enough to encourage the Marine Ich to develop a resistance to hyposalinity and thus you wouldn't be able to use the correct hyposalinity to eradicate the Marine Ich. That sp. gr. will further upset/kill the bacteria and invertebrates in your tank, perhaps leading to higher ammonia and nitrite readings.

The hyposalinity treatment requires very accurate and diligent monitoring of the salinity. This must be done with a refractometer. You can get one for under $40.

Tank chemistries are not as good as they should be. But those reasons now aren't as important as getting a cure started for all the fish. I would suggest to not use tap water any more. It's not worth the risk. Please read this article:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

I can only advise not attempting a cure in your display tank. Further, the fish need to be removed from the display tank into a hospital tank(s) and properly treated (one of the above mentioned) immediately before the disease takes life. I don't know of any proven 'short cuts' in this situation. While it is inconvenient and time consuming to do this, while time passes the fish are getting 'sicker.' This effort and problem you're faced with is why I use a quarantine system (since 1970).

[CRJDriver]

If I am to setup up a QT with all of my fish in the QT tank I would need a 50 gal or so tank (I have 9 fish). I don't have the room nor the money for that size of tank. Six of the fish appear to be fine (4 chromis, coral beauty, clown) Is a 10 gal QT big enough for the yellow, yellow eyed and naso tangs? Would it still be effective if I just put the tangs in a QT tank? The local fish store reccommended a product call Ich Attack made by Kordon. www.novalek.com/kpds.htm if you scroll down the left coloum its #77 under the treatment section. Its 100% organic and he claimed to have put it in his reef tank and it worked well killing no corals. Headed to the fish store for some RO water to do about a 50% change. I'm sure I'll have more questions but i appreciate all of your info/advice.

[leebca]

Marine Ich usually first resides in the gill region of the fish where we/humans can't see it. Because of this, and the fact that people can miss seeing the disease, even if they don't show signs of Marine Ich all fish need to be treated for the disease.

The so called reef safe cures of Marine Ich have had about a 20% success rate. But, it isn't sure if that 20% really had Marine Ich or if the just developed an immunity to the Marine Ich. This information of success and failures is anecdotal. During such a treatment, fish have been known to die.

No independent studies have been done, nor do these product makers perform technical experiments and provide data, to prove their product always works. Wonder why? Read the label information carefully. Does the product really say it will kill all the Marine Ich? or are they using weasel words like, "effective treatment" without claiming it will cure all fish all the time? One particular 'escape clause' in such products is to say they contain the ingredients known to kill Marine Ich. That may be true, but that doesn't mean those products are in high enough concentrations to kill it in your tank. Some old treatments, like Malachite Green were used with some success, but the concentration needed harmed reef life. So a product can contain this medicine but in low concentration. Yet you see how a claim like that can be made without promising to completely kill all the Marine Ich and return all the fish to health.

Some of the reef safe products have been found to kill some reef inhabitants. A company doesn't actually test its product with all reef inhabitants, but just some of them, and guesses that it is 'reef safe.' There are no regulations or rules for making such claims. I prefer the products that specifically list what they were found to be compatible with or products that list their ingredients. Steven Pro has written an article to give you examples contained within a study he did, of what I've just written, in case you'd like to read about it:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/sp/index.php

My preference is the sure cure, and that's a hospital tank for all the fish. Sorry you're in this spot. I think I'd spend my money on the hospital tanks & systems, rather than 'maybe cures.' Read the bottle closely for exactly what it would cost you to complete a whole treatment cycle, then double it in case you want to do it again after some fish die or don't improve in health. That then is what the 'reef safe' product will cost you. But don't forget to add in the cost of the dead fish.

You say you have 9 fish but you don't mention their size nor the current size of your display tank. For hospital service, it could be that you need two 15 gallon setups or one 29 gallon setup depending upon their size. Regarding money, once bought, and you are finished with them, you can sell the equipment and tank(s) you don't need for future quarantine. If you buy two smaller tanks, you can keep one for future fish quarantine. You can also buy used tanks or 'borrow a tank or two' from club members. As another option, the aquarium kit, cleaned up, can make a nice Christmas present to a young relative as an introduction into the aquarium hobby.

If you describe the length of each species of fish you have, I can provide you some guidelines on the size tank or tanks you need. I note you did mention you could setup a 10 gallon hospital tank. So you' must have some space to work with. Let's utilize that space and your money wisely.

The minimum you need is a tank, sponge filter, tubing, and air pump for the filter. Then some hiding places for the fish (plastic piping, cave or tunnel decorations, etc.). A top if you have jumpers (or even if you don't). Lights can be optional or something real inexpensive just so the fish can see their foods. K-Mart Specials are good for this sort of thing. This being summer, you may get away without having to buy even a heater.

Space can be a challenge, but you don't need stands if you manage to convince your significant other(s) to let you borrow a bit more space for a few weeks.

I'm here to answer questions and help. You can count on that.

[leebca]

I was just now able to look at the reference you posted for the product Ich Attack.

Note words like:
100% Natural Disease Inhibitor and Preventative
["Inhibitor" is not a cure; "Preventative" - your case is too late for that.]

The 'disclaimer' of sorts:
Note: If the infection is too far advanced, no treatment will be satisfactory. It is very important to start treatment as soon as protozoan or fungus infections are noticed.
[". . .too far advanced. . ." could mean anything -- they get to decide.
". . .no treatment will be satisfactory. . ." is untrue unless by far advanced the fish is about to die. Language is very open to interpretation and Kordon (the manufacturer) can't be sued for what they've written. in a court of law.]

They have a way out when it fails and, according to their first claim, it doesn't cure. This is not something I wouldn't choose to cure my fish of Marine Ich.

[CRJDriver]

Lee I appreciate your help, its priceless!

Ok, I did about a 22 or 23 gal water change with RO water which is about a 42% water change. After the water change I noticed a significant amount of spots on the three tangs. Here ate the parameters after the water change
temp - 81 (thermostat set to 79 however)
ph - 8.3
Salinty - 1.021 (which is what i tried to lower it to)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 10
Nitrite - 0

Feed them after the water change and they seemed a little hesitant to eat, however they did eat.

I decided against the Ich-Attack, as i went to a diff LFS and the owner suggested NO-ICH, which he said he's used for 7 years and its worked well. http://www.aquariumpros.com/p-FSVECOM,FIV.html There the link, have you heard or used it before? In regards to the "legal words" on packages i personally don't think any company is going to say it kills all Ich on the package becuase then they are just waiting for a lawsuit. Anyway, I'm going to try the NO-ICH and see what happens. I did look into pricing of a QT tank and it just isn't plausable at this time, however next week (payday) it might be. In a nut shell I'm going to try this NO-ICH for now and will have QT in the near future. BTW, you had great ideas of re-gifting the QT tanks.

Heres the description of my fish as you requested.
4 chromis all no bigger than 1"
1 coral beauty - about 1.5 to 2 inches long 1" high
1 yellow tang - 2 to 2.5" long 1.5" high
1 Yelllow eyed tang - same size as the yellow, possible just a hair bigger
1 Naso tang - roughly 5" long and 2.5" high

The whole QT tank thing confuses me, i have lots of questions about it even after reading all i can find about it. for example...does it have to cycle? can you keep the same water in it after you've cured some fish? and the list goes on!

Also one last thing...not a single LFS had refractometers! One claimed that they don't keep them in stock becuase the get ruined in high humidity, is this true?
Thanks

[CRJDriver]

Forgot to mention...I bought some garlic guard to soak the food in, and have always used Vita-chem. I also put Marine C in the tank. The tangs seem a bit hesitant with the garlic on the seaweed, but i think they slowly pick at it.

[leebca]

Thanks for the information.

You had sent a PM that you had a 75 gallon display aquarium. When the Naso tang is cured, you may want to find it a new home. It will be continued to be under (invisible stress) from being in a tank that isn't long enough for it. Stress (and the Single Marine Fish)

If you didn't have the too-large-for-the-tank Naso Tang, your fish would do well in one quarantine tank of about 20 to 29 gallons for the 8 week process. That tang, for treatment, should have its own 40+ gallon aquarium. I use a 70 gallon quarantine tank for that size tang.

The NO-ICH product information is certainly more promising than the other. It does say specifically it eliminates Marine Ich. That is the kind of labeling you're looking for -- it's legally binding. But then they sort of ruin it all when they write:

It will safely and effectively eliminate marine parasites such as Cryptocaryon irritans a.k.a. "white spot," which only thrive in unstable conditions.

"Which only survives in unstable conditions" is untrue. I wonder who writes such misleading information? What is known about Marine Ich is that it actually isn't associated with 'unstable conditions' in water quality, water parameters, nutrition, or handling. Oh well. . . .

I've used one refractometer for over 15 years now. If it is affected by humidity, I sure don't see any signs of it. I keep it in my fish room with high humidity.

I'm sorry you're getting mis-information on different fronts. You can obtain a refractometer from one of Reefland's on-line sponsors or you can usually find one on eBay for sale/auction.

You'll find some of your QT answers in this article:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.htm

One thing you can do immediately is to put two sponge filters in your system to 'seed them' with nitrification bacteria. That is the start of a biological filter for the QT.

Unfortunately, the sponge filters may not be of much use on short notice like is the case now. It takes about 2 to 6 weeks to seed the sponge filters well enough. So instead of a bio-filter doing you much good, you'll need to do water changes to keep up with the pollution, or use chemical filtration.

I wouldn't worry about 'post treatment' QT for now.

Read the thread on garlic if you want more info on that: Garlic

Keep us informed of your progress.

[CRJDriver]

No progress to report, have done two doses of NO-ICH and there is no apparent affect. They actually seem worse. However the LFS guy said it would take time for this to work. I'm not sure if the doses are bringing the parasite out of the fish and thats why they look worse. Does this ever happen where they get worse as the medication is forcing the parasite out of the fish, and then they get better?

Also wanted to let ya know the Naso isn't swimming around anymore after the water change, actually seems he's swimming less, but he is still alive! So i guess theres still hope.

[leebca]

Originally Posted by CRJDriver

Does this ever happen where they get worse as the medication is forcing the parasite out of the fish, and then they get better?

No. You need to understand the parasite. Humans only see the last few days of this parasite in only one of its cycles. We can only see the Trophonts when they are 'pregnant' and ready to fall off the fish and go to the next stage. When we see this stage, it is embedded in the fish, under its top skin layer. The fish mucous and skin both are protecting the parasite so that no medication can get to it.

What you're seeing now is the hundreds of embedded Theronts (the infective stage) now getting ready to multiply.

The only time this parasite is 'open' and available for us to kill it is when it is off the fish and in either in its cyst stage or it free-swimming stage (looking for a host).

What we see is only a tip of the iceberg in the life cycle of this parasite. And what we can kill is invisible to the naked eye.

[CRJDriver]

Well no need to worry about the Naso tang, was dead this morning when i woke up, the yellow eyed tang did not look good and did not eat this morning either. The yellow tang did eat but still has yellow spots.

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of the loss. I'm hoping for better results of the remaining fishes.

[leebca]

Can you update us on the progress? Any value in using NO-ICH? How's things goin'?

[CRJDriver]

All but chromis are dead. NO-ICH didn't seem to do anything, after a full bottle of that I tried the Ich Attack I mention previously. I'm not sure if it had already gotten too bad for the stuff to work, but obviously neither method worked. So this leads to....whats next? Do the chormis have to come out and the tank run empty for 4-6 weeks? How do i go about getting rid of this and getting fish back in the tank?

[leebca]

I'm very sorry to hear about the losses. Those kinds of treatments usually don't work, yet so many people are drawn to them in the hopes they do.

The fish will need to come out of the display tank and into a quarantine or hospital tank. In the quarantine tank, threat them with a copper treatment. I urge Cupramine. Please read this for copper info:
Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

The display tank needs to go fishless, without any additions for at least 8 weeks.

Once the fish are cured and the tank time has passed, fish go back into the display tank. Every fish you buy after that goes through a quarantine process. There are many articles on that process:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.htm

The curing of the fish should take about 14 days after you start the treatment. When the treatment is done, you hold the fish in the QT for observation for another 5 or 6 weeks to make sure they are cured. This timing works out well since by the time the fish are verified to be disease-free, the tank will be ready for them.

The above is a guaranteed process if you handle everything properly and diligently. The biggest mistakes made are usually not watching the QT water quality closely enough (including pH) and contaminating the display tank by using contaminated equipment or nets, and from droplets, splashing, etc.

I know you're hurtin' right now, but I wonder if I could get a favor from you? Can you give me the total amount of money you spent on those medications and the total cost of the fish lost? Just one total. I will use this for future anonymous reference. If you won't want to post it here, that's okay. Just PM me.